Advice for fish sickness (Ich?)

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal
Hi Jay, in pursuit of Ich eradication, I've started the hyposalinity treatment in my DT after removing all the inverts to QT. Currently on my way down to 1.009.
But I have a question on duration. Is hyposalinity only required for 30 days even when doing in the DT? It understand when doing it with fish in a QT system, but I don't understand why it would be 30 days when done in the DT. Why is not the same as a fallow period (45/76 days)? Does the hypo treatment affect the Tomonts?
Thanks.

Yes, the 30 days at full hyposalinity disrupts the tomonts, but then, you need to take 5 to 7 days to bring the tank out of hypo and you should always monitor a tank for 14 days after any treatment as a fail safe for any issues.
Jay

 

[maxberter]

Thanks for confirming

 

[maxberter]

I still don't have a solid grasp on what life cycle of ich the hypo treatment is effective against and why hypo time is only 30 days whereas a fallow treatment requires a longer treatment time, specifically when doing the treatment in the DT. You've said hypo disrupts the tomont stage, but in my quest to really understand the theory, I found this post of yours from last year where you say that hypo only kills the tomite/theront stage, and the trophonts on the fish and the tomonts in the gravel are pretty much unscathed by it.

I guess the safest thing would be to run the hypo for the same, longer duration as used with the fallow approach, but I really want to understand the theory correctly so I can make informed choices (even if the theory isn't entirely proven).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I still don't have a solid grasp on what life cycle of ich the hypo treatment is effective against and why hypo time is only 30 days whereas a fallow treatment requires a longer treatment time, specifically when doing the treatment in the DT. You've said hypo disrupts the tomont stage, but in my quest to really understand the theory, I found this post of yours from last year where you say that hypo only kills the tomite/theront stage, and the trophonts on the fish and the tomonts in the gravel are pretty much unscathed by it.

I guess the safest thing would be to run the hypo for the same, longer duration as used with the fallow approach, but I really want to understand the theory correctly so I can make informed choices (even if the theory isn't entirely proven).

My earlier post was incorrect. Dips don't kill trophonts or tomonts, but hyposalinity DOES disrupt them. Here is an excerpt from Dr. Yanong, referencing Colorni: Tomonts of one strain of Cryptocaryon were effectively killed after 48 hours of exposure to 15 g/L or less (Colorni 1985). This is a specific gravity of 1.010

So - 30 days hypo (that's at least 30 days beyond when full hypo is reached) plus 5 days to come out of hypo, plus 14 days observation is fine. If you are worried, don't extend the hypo period (that's rough on fish) but rather, extend the observation period.

jay

 

[maxberter]

Thank you Jay, this is very helpful!
I found the publication you reference (for others that might be following):

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

This paragraph is a little unnerving:
More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities.

Thanks again

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay, this is very helpful!
I found the publication you reference (for others that might be following):

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

This paragraph is a little unnerving:
More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities.

Thanks again

Yes - the idea of "brackish water Cryptocaryon" has been kicking around for quite some time. I've never run into it myself, but I've heard rare rumors of it showing up in the pet trade. Mostly, it seems relegated to SE Asian food fisheries.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

I reached 1.009 salinity on July 11 (took 2 days to come down) and things have been going well (thus 11 days at full hypo so far). I am doing my first partial water change today. Nitrates are about ~15 right now prior to WC, pH has been steady around 7.6~7.7, never saw ammonia. Still at 1.009.

No signs of ich, everyone has been looking good. The color of my clownfish looks much better/darker, like when I bought him. He had been quite pale recently.

But the clownfish has been acting a bit odd starting yesterday and he's not/barely eating. Normally he is swimming all over the tank and eating a ton. Now is swimming in one spot, mostly ignoring the food. He also is swimming weirdly IMO. Attached is a video. Could this be a symptom of the hypo treatment? If so, should I consider ending treatment earlier than planned? Thoughts?

He also has a tear in his rear dorsal fin that showed up today. Not sure if related, but thought I'd mention it. There apparently has been some aggression in the tank (someone bit the dorsal fin off the firefish), but I thought the clown was the aggressor.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I reached 1.009 salinity on July 11 (took 2 days to come down) and things have been going well (thus 11 days at full hypo so far). I am doing my first partial water change today. Nitrates are about ~15 right now prior to WC, pH has been steady around 7.6~7.7, never saw ammonia. Still at 1.009.

No signs of ich, everyone has been looking good. The color of my clownfish looks much better/darker, like when I bought him. He had been quite pale recently.

But the clownfish has been acting a bit odd starting yesterday and he's not/barely eating. Normally he is swimming all over the tank and eating a ton. Now is swimming in one spot, mostly ignoring the food. He also is swimming weirdly IMO. Attached is a video. Could this be a symptom of the hypo treatment? If so, should I consider ending treatment earlier than planned? Thoughts?

He also has a tear in his rear dorsal fin that showed up today. Not sure if related, but thought I'd mention it. There apparently has been some aggression in the tank (someone bit the dorsal fin off the firefish), but I thought the clown was the aggressor.

Weird - the fish looks pretty good in the video. Clownfish handle hypo well. I couldn’t see the fin damage, but tankmate aggression can cause changes like this. There could also be some other disease going on….
I’d stay the course with the hypo.
Jay

 

[maxberter]

I feel a little dumb now, but I think I just realized that he's hosting the liverock. I've had him for months and he always just swam all over the place. I just fed and he did eat some flakes that drifted by.

 

[maxberter]

@Jay Hemdal
Got home from work today and found the coral beauty dead. Floating upside down, bloating on bottom of fish (swim bladder?). Appeared to be 100% normal as of the morning. Any thoughts?
Last night did a ~5% water change. pH was about 7.7 and nitrates about 20 (before water change). Salinity still spot on at 1.009. Other 2 fish look ok.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal
Got home from work today and found the coral beauty dead. Floating upside down, bloating on bottom of fish (swim bladder?). Appeared to be 100% normal as of the morning. Any thoughts?
Last night did a ~5% water change. pH was about 7.7 and nitrates about 20 (before water change). Salinity still spot on at 1.009. Other 2 fish look ok.

I went back through this thread, it is pretty convoluted. I was not really clear what treatments you were running, and when - at first you were talking about hypo, but then there was a delay and you switched to copper and then back to hypo? I thought the coral beauty died back on June 9?

Fish that die during hypo with swollen bellies are presumed to have ascites/edema. This is a risk with hyposalinity in fish that have some problem with osmotic balance, usually a kidney issue. In those cases, the fish cannot stop the influx of water due to the lower water salinity, and that can be fatal.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Yes, it is convoluted. And missing an important piece of information that I left out, which obviously would confuse the heck out of you. A few days after the coral beauty died, I purchased another one. I put the 2nd coral beauty into a QT tank when I bought him, and then he went into the display tank at the same time the clown got pulled out for his copper treatment. Then there was a short period where they both were in the display tank at normal salinity. And then hyposalinity was started and reached in full on July 11.

CB#2 looked very good during hypo up until he suddenly passed. Even that morning he looked great. Clown had been physically looking great too, but as of yesterday+today looks very skinny (can see spine, quite different from the video I posted last weekend). As I mentioned when I posted the video, he seems to be eating a lot less. I haven't seen any white stringy poop. The only other fish, a firefish, still looks very good (except the dorsal fin that someone bit off...).

I appreciate your help and sorry for the confusion.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, it is convoluted. And missing an important piece of information that I left out, which obviously would confuse the heck out of you. A few days after the coral beauty died, I purchased another one. I put the 2nd coral beauty into a QT tank when I bought him, and then he went into the display tank at the same time the clown got pulled out for his copper treatment. Then there was a short period where they both were in the display tank at normal salinity. And then hyposalinity was started and reached in full on July 11.

CB#2 looked very good during hypo up until he suddenly passed. Even that morning he looked great. Clown had been physically looking great too, but as of yesterday+today looks very skinny (can see spine, quite different from the video I posted last weekend). As I mentioned when I posted the video, he seems to be eating a lot less. I haven't seen any white stringy poop. The only other fish, a firefish, still looks very good (except the dorsal fin that someone bit off...).

I appreciate your help and sorry for the confusion.

So, with the second CB, the ascites could have been due to liver/kidney failure brought about by having been collected with cyanide. That is very commonly seen in pygmy angels from Indonesia and the Philippines. It causes mortality after collection/shipping that can run as high as 60%, with 40% being common. It's been going on since the late 1960's. It has been getting better in some areas, but then new ones, like Vietnam, start up.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Hi @Jay Hemdal
Wondering what you think of my Clownfish. He is eating a bit better than he was a few days ago, but still not as much as he used to. Very skinny (can see spine) and now has dark splotches on his mid-section white stripes (both sides).
We are on day 23 of full hypo.
1.009 SG
10 Nitrates
Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi @Jay Hemdal
Wondering what you think of my Clownfish. He is eating a bit better than he was a few days ago, but still not as much as he used to. Very skinny (can see spine) and now has dark splotches on his mid-section white stripes (both sides).
We are on day 23 of full hypo.
1.009 SG
10 Nitrates
Thanks.

Is this the same fish as in your 7/23 video?

This clownfish has an issue that is unrelated to the hyposalinity, but too date, nobody really knows what causes this. The symptoms are muscle discoloration that is only visible in the white portions of clownfish. People say this is "bruising" but that's only because that is what it looks like, there is never any evidence on what caused the bruise, nor does that explain why the discoloration is often seen on both sides of a fish.

I've not had any clownfish in hand that showed this discoloration, so I have not been able to send samples out for histopathology.

All I can tell you is that this goes away in some fish, and in other cases, the fish dies. However, the dying fish may not have died from whatever is causing the discoloration, it could be coincidental.

Just try to fatten this fish up the best you can.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Thanks as always Jay!
Yes, same fish.

 

[maxberter]

Just an update to close the thread:
Finished 30 days hypo last week. Tank brought back to 1.026 over 5 days.
Unfortunately lost my fire shrimp in the QT just two days before re-introduction. Not sure, but maybe starved, I didn't seem him eat much.
My urchin was also in bad shape and probably close to death, losing lots of spines, and small, but is recovering in the DT now.
Clown is looking good. Fattening up nicely and the spots on the sides are gradually disappearing.