acute genocide

[Lavey29]

Stray voltage is a red herring and doesn't harm fish anyway. Also confirmed by Jay H (love having him on staff here) and myself. I had 50 volts in a tank and didn't know it untill I stuck my hand in the tank while standing on a chair. Yep I jerked and fell off lol. Fish and coral were all perfectly fine becuase they aren't grounded.

Internet source:

Yes, stray voltage can be dangerous to fish in a reef tank, causing serious health problems like Head and Lateral Line Erosion. Stray voltage can also shock people who accidentally touch the water

Stray voltage in an aquarium may appear insignificant, but if left undetected, it can result in electric shocks that can harm and even kill your aquatic pets, posing a severe threat to your safety as well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It checks for pollutants also

What pollutants? The ICP reporting is by elements. So, unless the “pollutant” is a heavy metal (as I mentioned) it won’t show. Organics are not measured by ICP, in fact, the company I use doesn’t even report carbon or nitrogen. If lead or copper is high, that is easily seen with ICP, but something like formaldehyde won’t show at all.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Internet source:

Yes, stray voltage can be dangerous to fish in a reef tank, causing serious health problems like Head and Lateral Line Erosion. Stray voltage can also shock people who accidentally touch the water

Stray voltage in an aquarium may appear insignificant, but if left undetected, it can result in electric shocks that can harm and even kill your aquatic pets, posing a severe threat to your safety as well.

As @exnisstech mentioned, Jay Hemdal has talked about this on here:

The problem is that "stray voltage" (inducing voltage, not actual short circuits) does not cause any harm to fish or invertebrates. Back in the day, it was blamed for causing head and Lateral Line Erosion. What happened was people had fish with HLLE, ran a voltage test, found a small AC current to ground, and blamed that. It has been proven not to have been causative. Unfortunately, the idea got carried over to just about every aquarium problem....

Myth: “Stray voltage” causes fish loss or health issues: This is a red herring, stray or induced voltage (typically < 50 VAC) has no measurable effect on aquarium fish, as they are not grounded, so there is no electrical potential. Stray voltage has been ruled out as a cause of HLLE. True electrical shorts can harm or kill fish, as well as people. All aquariums must be plugged into GFI circuits.

Jay

 

[exnisstech]

Internet source:

Yes, stray voltage can be dangerous to fish in a reef tank, causing serious health problems like Head and Lateral Line Erosion. Stray voltage can also shock people who accidentally touch the water

Stray voltage in an aquarium may appear insignificant, but if left undetected, it can result in electric shocks that can harm and even kill your aquatic pets, posing a severe threat to your safety as well.

Yet no one has ever been able to provide any proof other than internet posts. I would love to see proof and I have asked numerous times. I've had unexplained fish deaths and would love an explanation.

 

[amyxagl]

Most toxins affect invertebrates, especially corals, before fish. These are best removed by first identifying and eliminating the source, and then big water changes (both carbon and ozone are limited in what they neutralize, but water changes work for all toxins.

Im not opposed to flushing the system out with WC. just making sure it is a toxin becuase im not sure what would produce the toxin and if it would come back. inverts i have: astrea snails, hermits, turbo snails, emrald crab and i did see a micro brittle star once.

I'm not super knowledgeable on the chemistry side of things yet, but carbon does help with some toxins, IIRC ozone does as well, but - to answer this part - there are definitely toxins that impact fish more than inverts; they're called ichthyotoxins.

Holothurin (the toxin from sea cucumbers) is one example and Ostracitoxin/Pahutoxin (the toxin from boxfish and cowfish) is another.

good to know. i can see this being an effect on fish. i know you mentioned ur not super knowledgable so i wont hold you to it, but i dont have a sea cucumber or box/cow fish. i started with all marcos dry rock so idk if anything wouldve been on that.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Im not opposed to flushing the system out with WC. just making sure it is a toxin becuase im not sure what would produce the toxin and if it would come back. inverts i have: astrea snails, hermits, turbo snails, emrald crab and i did see a micro brittle star once.

good to know. i can see this being an effect on fish. i know you mentioned ur not super knowledgable so i wont hold you to it, but i dont have a sea cucumber or box/cow fish. i started with all marcos dry rock so idk if anything wouldve been on that.

Those invertebrates are pretty hardy, the snails would be the most sensitive to toxins.

 

[amyxagl]

Those invertebrates are pretty hardy, the snails would be the most sensitive to toxins.

this is why i figured velvet initially

so far my next steps are
test voltage since its free and i can get a result tomorrow regardless of unconfirmed truth.
icp test and wait for results.
last is if i have no issues with icp, i will do a couple massive water changes, throw a chromis in there, and hope it lives or Lavey29 might yell at me again for being heartless

edit: cant imagine it being any of the equipment with the exception of the BRS titanium heater which only is on sometimes

edit again: looking at my apex power output of the heater, it was not on during chromis

 

[Lavey29]

this is why i figured velvet initially

so far my next steps are
test voltage since its free and i can get a result tomorrow regardless of unconfirmed truth.
icp test and wait for results.
last is if i have no issues with icp, i will do a couple massive water changes, throw a chromis in there, and hope it lives or Lavey29 might yell at me again for being heartless

And a reason not to fallow for 45 days to ensure disease is not the source of your problems?

Oh I know, I know.... because I WANT A REEF AND I WANT IT NOW.... good luck little chromis

And people wonder why the government tries to shut down this hobby with legislation and import export bans.

 

[amyxagl]

And a reason not to fallow for 45 days to ensure disease is not the source of your problems?

Oh I know, I know.... because I WANT A REEF AND I WANT IT NOW.... good luck little chromis

And people wonder why the government tries to shut down this hobby with legislation and import export bans.

alot of people are saying its not velvet.
do you think its velvet?

i bet youre the kind to love the feeder fish at deathco that people buy to feed their oscar fish

 

[Lavey29]

alot of people are saying its not velvet.
do you think its velvet?

i bet your the kind to love the feeder fish at deathco that people buy to feed their oscar fish

Nope just a regular guy with the moral and ethical standards necessary to be successful in this hobby.

I do eat sushi in front of my fish tank so you got me there.

 

[amyxagl]

Nope just a regular guy with the moral and ethical standards necessary to be successful in this hobby.

I do eat sushi in front of my fish tank so you got me there.

sushi is delicious.
i rather find exactly what it is. if i wait 2 months and do massive water changes, im not going to know what the source is. if there was a way to test velvet with standard hobby equipment id be all over that. heck if there was a add-on option for an icp test to diseases id pay for that.

its not that im impatient. ive waited 10 years to get my big saltwater tank. ive been keeping tanks for 20 years and grown patients. its more like what the heck is happening with my tank and how can i avoid this/fix it. never had sudden death wipe out all my fish and leave inverts alone.

 

[Lavey29]

sushi is delicious.
i rather find exactly what it is. if i wait 2 months and do massive water changes, im not going to know what the source is. if there was a way to test velvet with standard hobby equipment id be all over that. heck if there was a add-on option for an icp test to diseases id pay for that.

its not that im impatient. ive waited 10 years to get my big saltwater tank. ive been keeping tanks for 20 years and grown patients. its more like what the heck is happening with my tank and how can i avoid this/fix it. never had sudden death wipe out all my fish and leave inverts alone.

If you have been around that long then you should know what the most important element of this hobby is....

Patience

 

[amyxagl]

If you have been around that long then you should know what the most important element of this hobby is....

Patience

sooo, what do i do? i havent heard your opinion on what you think it might be. hammer solution and do all of the above and just move on? do i just do the fallow period? icp test arent free and might not tell me the issue. what if i do a fallow period, doesnt have voltage, icp test, and water change and another 5 dollar damsel dies again in 5 hours? its not like ive heard a diagnosis from you. i just hear someone ranting about i didnt do everything because again im trying to figure out the issue. velvet didnt make sense to the LFS owner at that speed which is why we thought lets try a couple of damsels and really watch their behavior this time with pics and vids. being at work last time i just came home to a nuked tank and couldnt see exactly their behavior other than the last hour of their life.

hammer solution doesnt give an answer. normally i do massive water changes if something not right. only until recently i only had api kits for my freshwater. its a much cheaper path of tanks and hadnt warranted buying every test under the sun for something as low potassium for the plants.

yes 20 years is a long time, so 2 months fallow isnt much for me but i also wouldnt be on here if it was a fairly obvious answer. if you are just going to get mad over test fish then we would all be guilty whenever we start a tank and are new to the hobby. i rather see some ideas than a rant about losing another fish or stating random things that have been answered earlier in this thread. im asking for help, not a guilt lecture from my mother. i dont condone animal abuse but at the same time how have we learned anything from any biological field?

 

[Lavey29]

sooo, what do i do? i havent heard your opinion on what you think it might be. hammer solution and do all of the above and just move on? do i just do the fallow period? icp test arent free and might not tell me the issue. what if i do a fallow period, doesnt have voltage, icp test, and water change and another 5 dollar damsel dies again in 5 hours? its not like ive heard a diagnosis from you. i just hear someone ranting about i didnt do everything because again im trying to figure out the issue. velvet didnt make sense to the LFS owner at that speed which is why we thought lets try a couple of damsels and really watch their behavior this time with pics and vids. being at work last time i just came home to a nuked tank and couldnt see exactly their behavior other than the last hour of their life.

hammer solution doesnt give an answer. normally i do massive water changes if something not right. only until recently i only had api kits for my freshwater. its a much cheaper path of tanks and hadnt warranted buying every test under the sun for something as low potassium for the plants.

yes 20 years is a long time, so 2 months fallow isnt much for me but i also wouldnt be on here if it was a fairly obvious answer. if you are just going to get mad over test fish then we would all be guilty whenever we start a tank and are new to the hobby. i rather see some ideas than a rant about losing another fish or stating random things that have been answered earlier in this thread. im asking for help, not a guilt lecture from my mother. i dont condone animal abuse but at the same time how have we learned anything from any biological field?

I'm just glad I'm not a 5 dollar chromis swimming around in front of you

 

[amyxagl]

I'm just glad I'm not a 5 dollar chromis swimming around in front of you

again, thank you for the helpful input.

 

[Lavey29]

again, thank you for the helpful input.

I told you what to do in my first post. Fallow your tank to ensure disease is removed. During this period check all equipment and water chemistry. Make sure filtration is operating properly and sufficient. Get an ICP test. If inverts continue to be ok, you can add corals and work on your biome with microfauna and more biodiversity. Since your tank is only 6 months add a few pieces of live wet ocean rock and turbo charge your biome. Get your RODI checked with your ICP test. After 45 days or so and everything looks OK get your 5 dollar chromis starter fish but be sure your tank is still cycling properly first. The fish will thank you later for following these steps and showing patience and ethical care for your inhabitants.

 

[amyxagl]

I told you what to do in my first post. Fallow your tank to ensure disease is removed. During this period check all equipment and water chemistry. Make sure filtration is operating properly and sufficient. Get an ICP test. If inverts continue to be ok, you can add corals and work on your biome with microfauna and more biodiversity. Since your tank is only 6 months add a few pieces of live wet ocean rock and turbo charge your biome. Get your RODI checked with your ICP test. After 45 days or so and everything looks OK get your 5 dollar chromis starter fish but be sure your tank is still cycling properly first. The fish will thank you later for following these steps and showing patience and ethical care for your inhabitants.

this is a post i can appreciate more.
i will be getting an icp test this week since the verdict hasnt been nailed down.

I did add 5 jars of copepods during cycling phase. been feeding them live phyto as well. did microbater 7 and dr tims one and only. "live" sand and dry marco rock cycled with the ammonia additive until levels were good. clowns were first after 2 months and were doing fine until this week.

ive skipped the live ocean rock only because i wasnt wanting to spend that much for shipping live rock (lfs here dont seem to have any nowadays or not a place i fully trust) when plenty people had slow but successful tanks with dry rock. i also was trying to control hitchhikers that can come on live rock.

filtration is up to par and new: dc skimmer, ozone, uv, biomedia, socks, refugium. running a cor-20 at 400 gph with the flow split in half thru the uv and the other half passthru.
Ive had corals in the tank for a while and mentioned they were fine in previous posts, was battling alk two months ago but calcium reactor has now kept it steady.
i did post the params earlier as well.

i agree about the biome as a fellow freshwater guy you might get that part. once its nicely established you can go a long time without issues like algae. just been trying to get phosphates up to help with the dinos as you can see in the videos.

i only get frustrated when someone says something thats been answered and belittles the OP. Ive done alot of research just hadn't ran into this before. im sure we have all messed up starting in this hobby.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

this is why i figured velvet initially

so far my next steps are
test voltage since its free and i can get a result tomorrow regardless of unconfirmed truth.
icp test and wait for results.
last is if i have no issues with icp, i will do a couple massive water changes, throw a chromis in there, and hope it lives or Lavey29 might yell at me again for being heartless

edit: cant imagine it being any of the equipment with the exception of the BRS titanium heater which only is on sometimes

edit again: looking at my apex power output of the heater, it was not on during chromis

I have a rule that I never add any new fish to a tank within 30 days of an unknown fish loss, and then I run a full quarantine. Otherwise, a full 60 day fallow is safer.

Don’t forget - green chromis are handled poorly through the supply chain because they are cheap. As a result, they have a high mortality rate from all causes, and can bring in their own disease issues.

Because of the life cycle of velvet, while it kills fast, unless the fish were already close to death from it, it didn’t kill these chromis. That would have taken a minimum of 48 hours, if the chromis arrived with a moderate infection, 4 days or more if they caught it from your tank.

 

[amyxagl]

I have a rule that I never add any new fish to a tank within 30 days of an unknown fish loss, and then I run a full quarantine. Otherwise, a full 60 day fallow is safer.

Don’t forget - green chromis are handled poorly through the supply chain because they are cheap. As a result, they have a high mortality rate from all causes, and can bring in their own disease issues.

Because of the life cycle of velvet, while it kills fast, unless the fish were already close to death from it, it didn’t kill these chromis. That would have taken a minimum of 48 hours, if the chromis arrived with a moderate infection, 4 days or more if they caught it from your tank.

the chromis looked fine in the store as well as the first couple hours in the tank but yes the cheap and abundant fish tend to have issues.

wasnt planning on adding fish for a while. the chromis was a spur of the moment idea since we wanted to see the behavior and was the beginning of fallow.

unrelated to this issue im starting to get bryopsis and 2 weeks ago was about to dose flux rx(?) i think that what is called. i know your not supposed to do water changes during that 2 week period.
my question is when should i start the bryopsis treatment? i figured this is as good of a time anyways. icp first, get results, do big water change then start bryopsis?

 

[Lavey29]

this is a post i can appreciate more.
i will be getting an icp test this week since the verdict hasnt been nailed down.

I did add 5 jars of copepods during cycling phase. been feeding them live phyto as well. did microbater 7 and dr tims one and only. "live" sand and dry marco rock cycled with the ammonia additive until levels were good. clowns were first after 2 months and were doing fine until this week.

ive skipped the live ocean rock only because i wasnt wanting to spend that much for shipping live rock (lfs here dont seem to have any nowadays or not a place i fully trust) when plenty people had slow but successful tanks with dry rock. i also was trying to control hitchhikers that can come on live rock.

filtration is up to par and new: dc skimmer, ozone, uv, biomedia, socks, refugium. running a cor-20 at 400 gph with the flow split in half thru the uv and the other half passthru.
Ive had corals in the tank for a while and mentioned they were fine in previous posts, was battling alk two months ago but calcium reactor has now kept it steady.
i did post the params earlier as well.

i agree about the biome as a fellow freshwater guy you might get that part. once its nicely established you can go a long time without issues like algae. just been trying to get phosphates up to help with the dinos as you can see in the videos.

i only get frustrated when someone says something thats been answered and belittles the OP. Ive done alot of research just hadn't ran into this before. im sure we have all messed up starting in this hobby.

So here is my assessment and I always defer fish disease advise to the experts here who have responded to your thread.

You have a 6 month old 70g DT. This is actually 50g with rocks. You had a hippo tang in there which should have never been in a small tank like yours and then you recently introduced the SF tang which also should not be in a small tank like yours. Both fish would be under significant stress due to conditions and then you combine the power outage with equipment glitches such as RODI over fill and you begin to have a recipe for failure. If the new fish did bring disease in then the stress of the environment caused your fish immune systems to fail quickly resulting in fast death. Once the big fish succumbed then the small fish were quick to follow. So disease is certainly a probable factor but there are also other contributing factors.

You seem to have a lot of nice equipment for your tank why not a battery back up also so power glitches don't nuke the tank? You posted your parameters but you also mention battles with dinos and now bryposis (sure its not normal GHA?) so your parameters are not good but in a 6 month tank this is to be expected. Dinos can release toxins and sometimes cause harm to fish. This may have also added to the stress in the tank. You mention a dead fish clogged up your downpipe which may have caused disruptions to normal filtration levels also. This of course can lead to other problems if the water is not being filtered properly and fish are under stress. There could have been an ammonia spike from a dead fish that cased a chain reaction with the other fish also. The 3 suicide volunteers you added to the tank died very fast. This leans more towards tank environment and water chemistry with toxins, stray voltage, lack of proper filtration resulting in 02 issues, etc... but you still can not rule out disease here either

It is hard to say definitively what caused your issues but it appears to have been somehow connected to the power outage and this stresser may have triggered other problems in the tank for the fish. Best course is to fallow for 60 days, do regular weekly water changes, work on your nuisance algae issues, check all equipment for function, make sure flow is adequate with good surface ripple for gas exchange, add ammonia to keep your cycle going, build your biome even if just a few small pieces of real live ocean rock, see if any pollutants with ICP tests, then introduce a properly QT fish or 2 back into your system and see how they do for a month.

Dont introduce harsh chemicals into your tank to deal with nuisance algae unless it is an absolute last resort. You will open the door for a host of other problems by doing so. a 6 month tank is barely developing its biome and for another 6 months will be unstable and unpredictable so just add basic easy to keep corals and fish that are appropriate for your size of tank. I have a 65g DT with 12 small but very colorful fish. I experienced disease and fish loss to when my tank was brand new and had to fallow as well. My tank went through ups and downs the first year but then became much more table and predictable so my corals and fish thrive now.

Take your time.