acute genocide

[MnFish1]

doing more research. yeah i didnt see any spots like velvet.

You often will see no spots with velvet...

 

[MnFish1]

update: velvet confirmed. came home and the tomini didnt survive.
took photos this time. didnt think it acted that fast.

sad day for me. big thank you to everyone on here trying to help me out

the fallow has started. and ive learned about qt. everyone doesnt do it till they experienced something like this.

It acts that fast. Since most fish don't show symptoms until the 'end'. BTW - velvet is not 'confirmed' - but - suggestive

 

[MnFish1]

I’m going to focus on “tons of bubbles in the sump”. I think this was an acute supersaturation event. If those bubbles get picked up by a pump, they are compressed into solution. Then, when the water is jetted out into the tank, the pressure is released and the fish are exposed to it. Nitrogen gas diffuses across the gills, and then comes out of solution in the fish’s blood. If you have a microscope, you can usually see silver lines in the fins and gills, that’s the gas coming out of their blood. In severe cases, you don’t need a microscope. Some fish can survive, especially if they hide under something, where the partial pressure of the gas is a bit less.

I once was called in to do some troubleshooting on a store’s system - they would wait for the pumps in their dumps to start vortexing before topping them up - and their fish all had “silver gills” as they described it to me.

If the tomini is still alive, you can rule out an acute disease event, as well as water toxicity.

It is possible, but not probable, that the system malfunction resulted in low dissolved oxygen. The effects are similar.

It seems counterintuitive, but adding aeration fixes a supersaturation event, kind of like shaking a can of soda.

The fish is dead. However - you make an interesting point on differential diagnosis

 

[MnFish1]

update: velvet confirmed. came home and the tomini didnt survive.
took photos this time. didnt think it acted that fast.

sad day for me. big thank you to everyone on here trying to help me out

the fallow has started. and ive learned about qt. everyone doesnt do it till they experienced something like this.

BTW. I know it's hard - financially and emotionally to lose a fish. Everyone here is honored to help you - though I'm not sure it helped the fish - it will help you in fish selection in the future hopefully

 

[amyxagl]

It acts that fast. Since most fish don't show symptoms until the 'end'. BTW - velvet is not 'confirmed' - but - suggestive

it just seemed too fast which is why i came on here. within 24 hours after the new fish was put in via acclimation box, almost everyone was dead. i had hope for the tomini since he was fine last night and this morning.

now looking back i did notice one of the clowns acting a little funny within an hour after adding the sailfin

 

[MnFish1]

it just seemed too fast which is why i came on here. within 24 hours after the new fish was put in via acclimation box, almost everyone was dead. i had hope for the tomini since he was fine last night and this morning.

now looking back i did notice one of the clowns acting a little funny within an hour after adding the sailfin

That IMHO would not make sense - a clown would not behave weird after an hour unless there was a toxin in the water

 

[amyxagl]

That IMHO would not make sense - a clown would not behave weird after an hour unless there was a toxin in the water

i was considering an icp test because of that. not sure if icp would catch a toxin. never done one before.

 

[MnFish1]

i was considering an icp test because of that. not sure if icp would catch a toxin. never done one before.

if there is one it might. probably not...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The fish is dead. However - you make an interesting point on differential diagnosis

It was based on the one fish surviving though. I’d still suggest they look into the tomini’s gills just to check for “silver lines”, but with it also dying, velvet would be likely in this case.

 

[amyxagl]

quick update: went to the store i buy from to have a therapy session with the owner. super nice and been helping me since the beginning. he wanted to experiment because i wasnt far into my fallow period. so he gave me three chromis to just try out to see. he was curious too. first one died after about 4.5 hours and number 2 and 3 died about an hour after that.

After some reading about diseases its pointing closer to velvet that is going for the fishes jugular ( gills) really fast. the fish doesnt even have time to show any physical symptoms like spots. just starts darting, hanging around the surface, pumps, and airstone, digging into a hole towards the end. ill upload a pic and vid of the one of the chromis tommorrow.

idk if its related because velvet is a dino, im having a dino bloom due to struggling to keep phosphates up (.02 atm) im working on that part

 

[MnFish1]

quick update: went to the store i buy from to have a therapy session with the owner. super nice and been helping me since the beginning. he wanted to experiment because i wasnt far into my fallow period. so he gave me three chromis to just try out to see. he was curious too. first one died after about 4.5 hours and number 2 and 3 died about an hour after that.

After some reading about diseases its pointing closer to velvet that is going for the fishes jugular ( gills) really fast. the fish doesnt even have time to show any physical symptoms like spots. just starts darting, hanging around the surface, pumps, and airstone, digging into a hole towards the end. ill upload a pic and vid of the one of the chromis tommorrow.

idk if its related because velvet is a dino, im having a dino bloom due to struggling to keep phosphates up (.02 atm) im working on that part

I do not believe that (except for an organism producing a toxin) a disease is causing your issue.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

quick update: went to the store i buy from to have a therapy session with the owner. super nice and been helping me since the beginning. he wanted to experiment because i wasnt far into my fallow period. so he gave me three chromis to just try out to see. he was curious too. first one died after about 4.5 hours and number 2 and 3 died about an hour after that.

After some reading about diseases its pointing closer to velvet that is going for the fishes jugular ( gills) really fast. the fish doesnt even have time to show any physical symptoms like spots. just starts darting, hanging around the surface, pumps, and airstone, digging into a hole towards the end. ill upload a pic and vid of the one of the chromis tommorrow.

idk if its related because velvet is a dino, im having a dino bloom due to struggling to keep phosphates up (.02 atm) im working on that part

That’s too fast to be a velvet infection. What was the stores salinity compared to yours?

 

[Bruttall]

If not for the "inverts seem fine" statement I would almost think you are describing Chlorine Poisoning, how's your filter system for your water before you mix your salt? Fish dying with in hours of being added to a tank does not strike me as a disease at all, but rather a water toxicity issue.

I had Ick/Velvet and it took about 5 days to wipe out my livestock and then not all of them perished, I saved some with QT and therapeutic copper treatment.

 

[amyxagl]

That’s too fast to be a velvet infection. What was the stores salinity compared to yours?

store 1.021 - 1.020
mine 1.025-1.026

I drip acclimate for about an hour. i havent had issues before with their fish. the chromis seemed fine for the first few hours, then i look at them and i start to see the behavior change.

 

[amyxagl]

I do not believe that (except for an organism producing a toxin) a disease is causing your issue.

ok. i didnt think it would act the same as a standard dino bloom either. just had to ask

 

[amyxagl]

If not for the "inverts seem fine" statement I would almost think you are describing Chlorine Poisoning, how's your filter system for your water before you mix your salt? Fish dying with in hours of being added to a tank does not strike me as a disease at all, but rather a water toxicity issue.

I had Ick/Velvet and it took about 5 days to wipe out my livestock and then not all of them perished, I saved some with QT and therapeutic copper treatment.

using a BRS 4 stage 150 gal RODI system. current tds in is 1 and out is 0 ( i double checked the position of tds sensors when i installed it). Been using the same filters since i got it 6 months ago. i have it plumbed directly to my ato res. and a neptune LLS that watches the level and opens the neptune selenoid automatically when the level gets to a certain point. so that kinda rules out a contaminated bucket transfer. i have the auto flush system added onto the RODI as well to keep the filters lasting longer.

for the salt mixing, RODI is also directly plumbed to the mixing container with a selenoid control. Feed button allows me to hit it and open the selenoid for 2 hours until an optical sensor at the top closes as well a a old school float valve as a backup. inside the bucket i have a 5 month old cheap wavemaker from fluval that has a basic timer remote to turn on for 1/2/4 hours to mix to prevent over mixing. and i have a neptune dos that changes out all 9 gals that is only controlled via another feed button. (again preventing bucket contaimination) I decided to keep salt mixing as hands on to prevent any computer glitches.

Salt ive been using is the AF reef salt, although im almost as the end of the bag and about to switch to NYOS because im curious and it was on sale.

The only thing i can think of as far as a water toxin is a 3d printed screen guard on my cor 20. i used abs plastic instead of petg filiment. people online say it could leach eventually. again its only been about 7 months. i figured it would be fine as a temporary gaurd. also it just seems that it wouldve slowly killed fish as levels slowly rise.

I did do a 30% water change this week before the chromis just incase. altho im torn becuase taking the little bit of phosphates that i do have out making my dino bloom worse. im torn on that part of doing a huge water change when inverts and coral are fine.

edit: also had not done a water change for a week prior to the genocide so im still inclined to say that the salt isnt to blame.

 

[amyxagl]

heres some vids and couple after death pics.

 

[vetteguy53081]

update: velvet confirmed. came home and the tomini didnt survive.
took photos this time. didnt think it acted that fast.

sad day for me. big thank you to everyone on here trying to help me out

the fallow has started. and ive learned about qt. everyone doesnt do it till they experienced something like this.

Sorry to see and hard to determine after fish has died, and displayed out of water as to any symptoms.

 

[Lavey29]

quick update: went to the store i buy from to have a therapy session with the owner. super nice and been helping me since the beginning. he wanted to experiment because i wasnt far into my fallow period. so he gave me three chromis to just try out to see. he was curious too. first one died after about 4.5 hours and number 2 and 3 died about an hour after that.

After some reading about diseases its pointing closer to velvet that is going for the fishes jugular ( gills) really fast. the fish doesnt even have time to show any physical symptoms like spots. just starts darting, hanging around the surface, pumps, and airstone, digging into a hole towards the end. ill upload a pic and vid of the one of the chromis tommorrow.

idk if its related because velvet is a dino, im having a dino bloom due to struggling to keep phosphates up (.02 atm) im working on that part

That's great, sending some poor little fish on a suicide mission when you have already determined something significant is wrong with your tank and have barely done anything to correct it back to a suitable environment yet. The title of your thread fits perfect with the theme here.

Perhaps you should research fallow period again when tanks get hit with disease. During this period you can also verify water chemistry, confirm filtration is adequate, check other equipment for stray voltage, confirm 0 TDS in RODI, send sample out for lab analysis, QT any surviving fish, etc...etc...etc... and don't ask for any more volunteers for a suicide mission until you have done your part.

 

[MnFish1]

A couple things I thought of.

1. It seems unclear whether whatever killed the Chromis also killed the original fish - since the history is completely different - as I (and others) have said - the death of the most recent fish does not match the pattern of the other fish deaths (at least to my understanding of your post). The new Chromis died practically immediately, whereas the other fish died after days (or longer) - correct me if I'm wrong. This is more consistent with a disease brought in by the tang which spread to the others (again if I'm reading it correctly?)
2. The most recent death really does not make sense to be a disease - and I agree with @Jay Hemdal that the most likely thing is the rapid salinity change (or something else that was markedly different between the 2 tanks). I'm curious if you had checked your other parameters besides salinity before adding the chromis. Are you absolutely sure that the tests you're using to measure salinity, etc. are accurate (i.e. could your salinity be higher?). As already answered - since the running assumption is that the first fish died from a disease - you should not add more fish until at least a 6 week fallow period
3. As far as toxins, I don't know what exactly about your plastic could have caused the problem, it would surprise me if this is the problem. But - since this is at least a slight concern - have you considered running a good quality activated carbon?

One last comment - and I'm not trying to be critical - some of the issues here are very hard to 'tease out' - in part because you didn't follow a set quarantine protocol - which I would recommend for the future.