Acrylic Fabrication Q & A
- Thread starter Turbo's Aquatics
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TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
Rumor has it that your neighboring Canadian president is more welcoming! and then you have the youtuber from that region who preaches "How to **** acrylic tanks in a million ways".
EDIT: Stop this before people hits us with rotten tomatoes.
More on acrylics, there are few guys here making tanks with the two part stuff. They use ACRIFIX 2r180 (Brand of evonik, the one who makes plexi), and UVALAM a chinese brand. All imported from the respective countries. But relatively tanks arent monsterous, maxed out at being 4 ft high.
EDIT: Stop this before people hits us with rotten tomatoes.
More on acrylics, there are few guys here making tanks with the two part stuff. They use ACRIFIX 2r180 (Brand of evonik, the one who makes plexi), and UVALAM a chinese brand. All imported from the respective countries. But relatively tanks arent monsterous, maxed out at being 4 ft high.
Come to think of it, it's going to be 120 degrees here this weekend so Canada is sounding pretty good right now.
What type of acrylic projects do you build over there in India?
What type of acrylic projects do you build over there in India?
A few years ago we got a batch of about 20 sheets of black Acrylite that we noticed that most bonds didn't seem right for some reason. I took some of the bonded parts and used my hands to try and break the bonds and they would just literally come apart at the bond. Any acrylic bonder knows this is not supposed to happen, the bond is stronger that the actual material. Long story short it was manufactured in their chinese facility. The US rep admitted that they had issues with it, after going back and forth for a few weeks. That was the point where we decided to stop using that brand and anything made in china. We have also seen some of the chinese colored acrylics lose their color when exposed to any kinds of UV or natural light. The main one that a lot of suppliers try to push is TruCast. That stuff is JUNK! Once you use good quality material you don't go back. Yes most people will use it to save money, but to us it's not worth it. Now Evonik, the parent company of acrylite, does have a US facility that still makes awesome quality material. As with anything you get what you pay for. Ask your supplier what the brand is, if they can't tell you, then more than likely they are just buying the cheapest material they can. If they can't get you what you want then move on to a different supplier.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@TherealplexiG , cromag08, and Floyd R Turbo,
The Outer Bay exhibit at Monterrey Bay is the largest acrylic panel I have seen up close an personal. If you ever have a chance go to the Monterrey Bay Aquarium and look at that panel it is amazing. If I remember the story correctly they bonded the 12.5" thick panels end to end on site. The engineers draped the panels and did not allow any people on site for the bonding process and draped all the joints to prevent anyone from seeing the process. If you stand just right you can see the joints and they are water clear. You can only detect a small distortion in the seam when light hits it just right. Impressive job and an impressive aquarium. I think it was Mitsubishi Chemical that cast the panels. Mitsubishi Chemical is one of the few companies that makes large diameter cast acrylic cylinder thick cast sheet.
The largest panels I ever fabricated we part of two aquariums 16'x 3' x 4' (l x w x h). They were out of 2" PolyCast and bonded in the center from two 8' x 4' panels. It was one of those jobs where I said I can do that and then hung up the phone and asked myself...how am I going to do that? The contract was one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences in my life. Still a very small job compared to Nippura's vast achievements. I am humbled by all the achievments of others and stand in awe of how they accomplish their projects. I would love to just be a technician working for Nippura or some company of that stature.
I did bid on a job in Guam for the aquarium there owned by Revlon in the Duty Free Mall through Mitsubishi Chemical and had a personal conversation with Dr. Ohnuma one time about the cylinders and he referred me to the Canada branch to get quotes. On the same project Reynolds Polymer quoted to me as well then requested I turn the project over to them for a finders fee...they never paid the fee and took the job. Nice.
The project manager in Guam through me a bone and I made a 5 sided aquarium out of 1.5" thick PolyCast that is part of the second floor display. I would never allow Reynolds to get near a future project due to their duplicity. I have only quoted large panels with PolyCast and Mitsubishi Chemical since.
This is one of those stories I don't often mention since it was a pivot point in my career. What if my company could have met the challenge and jumped the sharks into the public aquarium market? Instead my company was shark chow. Lol. I don't think I even caused Reynolds Polymer gas after they ate me. Lol. That was probably one of those projects that would have been a spectacular win or big flame out. I will never know. It was a rush just to be allowed to work on the bid. I never saw the completed project after I shipped the aquarium from our fabrication area. Some day I might make the flight. It would be fun to see and learn how it all turned out.
The Outer Bay exhibit at Monterrey Bay is the largest acrylic panel I have seen up close an personal. If you ever have a chance go to the Monterrey Bay Aquarium and look at that panel it is amazing. If I remember the story correctly they bonded the 12.5" thick panels end to end on site. The engineers draped the panels and did not allow any people on site for the bonding process and draped all the joints to prevent anyone from seeing the process. If you stand just right you can see the joints and they are water clear. You can only detect a small distortion in the seam when light hits it just right. Impressive job and an impressive aquarium. I think it was Mitsubishi Chemical that cast the panels. Mitsubishi Chemical is one of the few companies that makes large diameter cast acrylic cylinder thick cast sheet.
The largest panels I ever fabricated we part of two aquariums 16'x 3' x 4' (l x w x h). They were out of 2" PolyCast and bonded in the center from two 8' x 4' panels. It was one of those jobs where I said I can do that and then hung up the phone and asked myself...how am I going to do that? The contract was one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences in my life. Still a very small job compared to Nippura's vast achievements. I am humbled by all the achievments of others and stand in awe of how they accomplish their projects. I would love to just be a technician working for Nippura or some company of that stature.
I did bid on a job in Guam for the aquarium there owned by Revlon in the Duty Free Mall through Mitsubishi Chemical and had a personal conversation with Dr. Ohnuma one time about the cylinders and he referred me to the Canada branch to get quotes. On the same project Reynolds Polymer quoted to me as well then requested I turn the project over to them for a finders fee...they never paid the fee and took the job. Nice.
The project manager in Guam through me a bone and I made a 5 sided aquarium out of 1.5" thick PolyCast that is part of the second floor display. I would never allow Reynolds to get near a future project due to their duplicity. I have only quoted large panels with PolyCast and Mitsubishi Chemical since.
This is one of those stories I don't often mention since it was a pivot point in my career. What if my company could have met the challenge and jumped the sharks into the public aquarium market? Instead my company was shark chow. Lol. I don't think I even caused Reynolds Polymer gas after they ate me. Lol. That was probably one of those projects that would have been a spectacular win or big flame out. I will never know. It was a rush just to be allowed to work on the bid. I never saw the completed project after I shipped the aquarium from our fabrication area. Some day I might make the flight. It would be fun to see and learn how it all turned out.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@mixer911 <
Back in the day the Chinese sheet was called Shin Wa or something like that. I don't remember the spelling just the phonetic sound. I actually had a man from Indonesia fly to the states and I spent two days working with him on how to bond the material for tank construction. This was all the material he had available in Indonesia and I had made it work but it is sketchy and junk to say the least. It had a mothball smell when cut and I could not stand the poor visual quality.
I have been told only Reynolds Polymer and Polyone PolyCast are still cast in the United States. I would never use Reynolds due to their cross-linked acrylic polymer. It is a bear to bond well and they will not sell you there secret sauce to bond the panels. Weldon#35 will work on Reynolds cylinder but the bonds often bubble and make me nervous. I have made displays for a sprinkler company with those cylinder so they don't hold a column of water. It worked out very well for their display. Nelson Irrigation is the company.
I have been told the warehouse for Evonik is in Maine but the product is actually cast in Germany. Don't know the truth to that but in a recent quote of pallet quantities the sales manager for Sabic Plastics made the claim.
It is nice to hear about industry products to avoid. Thanks for the heads up.
Back in the day the Chinese sheet was called Shin Wa or something like that. I don't remember the spelling just the phonetic sound. I actually had a man from Indonesia fly to the states and I spent two days working with him on how to bond the material for tank construction. This was all the material he had available in Indonesia and I had made it work but it is sketchy and junk to say the least. It had a mothball smell when cut and I could not stand the poor visual quality.
I have been told only Reynolds Polymer and Polyone PolyCast are still cast in the United States. I would never use Reynolds due to their cross-linked acrylic polymer. It is a bear to bond well and they will not sell you there secret sauce to bond the panels. Weldon#35 will work on Reynolds cylinder but the bonds often bubble and make me nervous. I have made displays for a sprinkler company with those cylinder so they don't hold a column of water. It worked out very well for their display. Nelson Irrigation is the company.
I have been told the warehouse for Evonik is in Maine but the product is actually cast in Germany. Don't know the truth to that but in a recent quote of pallet quantities the sales manager for Sabic Plastics made the claim.
It is nice to hear about industry products to avoid. Thanks for the heads up.
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@ Mr. Lemon,
That's very inspiring..
Key to achievement is taking risks, calculated ones with nerves (B@!!$) though!
This is the only thread where plethora of knowledge being shared on the solvent bonding technique (Credit= Mr. Turbo)
@cromag08
"What type of acrylic projects do you build over there in India?"
A: Pretty much Mickey Mouse type right now, someday gonna figure out how to go big.
@mixer911
How do you bond black sheets?
There is no visual confirmation on how well the solvent flows in. Is it just the senses and feel? or you use the two part?
Have any of ya'll fabricators ever used the two part from evonik?
Basically the two part is MMA resin (I guess inhibited with MEHQ, thats how you're able to store it at room temp), and activator Benzoyl peroxide with dibutyl phalatate (benzoyl peroxide comes generally in powdered form, to make it in anhydrous liquid form, its processed and mixed with DP. DP acts as a plasticizer).
PS. Ignore my English, it aint my first language.
That's very inspiring..
Key to achievement is taking risks, calculated ones with nerves (B@!!$) though!
This is the only thread where plethora of knowledge being shared on the solvent bonding technique (Credit= Mr. Turbo)
@cromag08
"What type of acrylic projects do you build over there in India?"
A: Pretty much Mickey Mouse type right now, someday gonna figure out how to go big.
@mixer911
How do you bond black sheets?
There is no visual confirmation on how well the solvent flows in. Is it just the senses and feel? or you use the two part?
Have any of ya'll fabricators ever used the two part from evonik?
Basically the two part is MMA resin (I guess inhibited with MEHQ, thats how you're able to store it at room temp), and activator Benzoyl peroxide with dibutyl phalatate (benzoyl peroxide comes generally in powdered form, to make it in anhydrous liquid form, its processed and mixed with DP. DP acts as a plasticizer).
PS. Ignore my English, it aint my first language.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@TherealplexiG ,
Both Weldon #40 and #42 are similar products here in the U.S. and I have used them on all acrylic sheets clear and colored. I prefer the mix that Mr. Turbo mentions with the pin method in the joints. I get water tight bonds with clear or color it does not matter once you get the technique down. I do not like the strength of the two part MMA resin for large aquariums. In my own facility we were able to make clean breaks in the joints with medium impacts. With a solvent bond the sheet will break at the same rate as the seam on impact. So I prefer the stronger bond for everything I build. I will use the two part in some situations like beveled seams for large hexagon shaped tanks and it works well...but I would prefer the solvent bond. It is just to hard to control the solvent in a beveled seam on large tanks. I can do it but it is messy and requires more clean up and polish time.
Both Weldon #40 and #42 are similar products here in the U.S. and I have used them on all acrylic sheets clear and colored. I prefer the mix that Mr. Turbo mentions with the pin method in the joints. I get water tight bonds with clear or color it does not matter once you get the technique down. I do not like the strength of the two part MMA resin for large aquariums. In my own facility we were able to make clean breaks in the joints with medium impacts. With a solvent bond the sheet will break at the same rate as the seam on impact. So I prefer the stronger bond for everything I build. I will use the two part in some situations like beveled seams for large hexagon shaped tanks and it works well...but I would prefer the solvent bond. It is just to hard to control the solvent in a beveled seam on large tanks. I can do it but it is messy and requires more clean up and polish time.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
It is the same but the thicker material requires a higher tensile strength wire pin. I use guitar wire for those pins and it works great. Butt seams are another trick and require some tricks I won't give away. Hey, I have to have some competitive advantage in the world!
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
There is a way to eliminate the pin method, and all the fuss that it makes. Simply by using a jig which can create even gap which can be closed and opened at will and also adds on pressure on the seam while you want to. This would be very much helpful in gluing sides to the front. That is the most tricky part i guess. Something like this but custom made would be very much helpful to professional fabricators. All you require is a very flat work bench. These 90deg suction clamps can be used for small projects.
I'll model something in CAD by next weekend, its just an idea. I'm not sure how efficiently it would work. But IMHO it would.
HTH (God knows what it means, but i have seen a lot of people write it.
)
I'll model something in CAD by next weekend, its just an idea. I'm not sure how efficiently it would work. But IMHO it would.
HTH (God knows what it means, but i have seen a lot of people write it.
)
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
http://www.edgefinisher.com/ef-200.html
check this out, it is any worthy then having a router according to you guys???
check this out, it is any worthy then having a router according to you guys???
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@Mr. Lemon,
Are you vertically buttwelding two sheets with pin and solvent method?
How do you route cuts with degrees, ie. for Hex Aquariums the edges have to be at some angle of 45 deg or 47 for casting the joints?
Edit: for casting the joints saw cut would do fine i guess, but all i wanna know is how do you route edges which have some angle
Are you vertically buttwelding two sheets with pin and solvent method?
How do you route cuts with degrees, ie. for Hex Aquariums the edges have to be at some angle of 45 deg or 47 for casting the joints?
Edit: for casting the joints saw cut would do fine i guess, but all i wanna know is how do you route edges which have some angle
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@Mr. Lemon,
Are you vertically buttwelding two sheets with pin and solvent method?
How do you route cuts with degrees, ie. for Hex Aquariums the edges have to be at some angle of 45 deg or 47 for casting the joints?
Edit: for casting the joints saw cut would do fine i guess, but all i wanna know is how do you route edges which have some angle
I butt weld two sheets horizontally with the pin and solvent method.
I have a tilt base rounter to make 15 degree cuts with a straight edge as a guide. Or I use a 3 axis CNC rounter with a custom 15 degree bit for the cuts for a large hexagon. For small hexagons I use a strip heater table that heats up to 5 zones at a time and bend the sheet around a form to cool. One 30 degree seam is cut on the form.
The EF 200 makes a polished edge on the acrylic in one pass. Works great but very expensive. The router table I use is less than $1000.00 with a power feeder for small parts with a high count run ( over 100 parts). I made it and it works great. Photo of the fence portion and table on this thread.
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@Lowell Lemon
What compound is this, the whitish foggy type? they use it to buff or polish acrylics. Picture attached for reference.
I'm asking too many question, i hope you don't get irritated.
Thanks
What compound is this, the whitish foggy type? they use it to buff or polish acrylics. Picture attached for reference.
I'm asking too many question, i hope you don't get irritated.
Thanks
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@Lowell Lemon
What compound is this, the whitish foggy type? they use it to buff or polish acrylics. Picture attached for reference.
I'm asking too many question, i hope you don't get irritated.
Thanks
Not sure the particular compound. There are many to choose from including car finish compounds.
OP
OP
I don't know specifically what they have shown in that pic but I use Meguair's Ultra-cut for the first polish after wet sanding and then Meguair's Swirl-Free Polish for the finishing pass.
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