A freshwater disease question

[Spare time]

I don't really trust other forums as much as was wondering if you all know whether freshwater ich has non copper based, in tank medicines that work. My friend's nano planted tank is having this issue. Weirdly enough, several died over night (oxygen isn't a big issue in this tank I wouldn't think), and the tetras had bulging eyes and the beta covered in mucus. The beta has a white looking mouth when she found it. The tetras do for sure have ich at the moment. Thoughts? I am guessing its a bacterial infection on the beta such as columnaris. The rasbora had the same thing as the beta. The beta also looked like it had a sore at some point. I was thinking of having her add 2ppt instant ocean salt and adding kanaplex. I am worried though about adding the kanaplex till the ich is gone as I don't want to disrupt their microbiome during an ich infection. Alternatively, she cna remove the fish and have them treated outside the tank. I don't know the life cycle of fw ich at 85F which is the temp the tank is at.

 

[C_AWOL]

I don't really trust other forums as much as was wondering if you all know whether freshwater ich has non copper based, in tank medicines that work. My friend's nano planted tank is having this issue. Weirdly enough, several died over night (oxygen isn't a big issue in this tank I wouldn't think), and the tetras had bulging eyes and the beta covered in mucus. The beta has a white looking mouth when she found it. The tetras do for sure have ich at the moment. Thoughts? I am guessing its a bacterial infection on the beta such as columnaris. The rasbora had the same thing as the beta. The beta also looked like it had a sore at some point. I was thinking of having her add 2ppt instant ocean salt and adding kanaplex. I am worried though about adding the kanaplex till the ich is gone as I don't want to disrupt their microbiome during an ich infection. Alternatively, she cna remove the fish and have them treated outside the tank. I don't know the life cycle of fw ich at 85F which is the temp the tank is at.

Fortunately if it is indeed ich and not velvet then raising the temperature to about 86F and adding aquarium salt will be the best options in the case of a planted tank.
Unfortunately while malachite green is extremely effective on freshwater ich, it's also typically very effective at nuking a lot of plant species as well though.
Are you dosing kanamycin for potential secondary infections? I could be entirely wrong but I'm not really aware of it being effective on freshwater ich

Edit: I further read your post more thoroughly and noticed the mention of bulging eyes/possibly bacterial growth.
Do you happen to have her water parameters(ammonia,nitrite,nitrate)? Regular use of kanamycin if the directions are followed will greatly improve water quality (due to the every other day 25% water change) but to my knowledge, erythromycin is typically more effective on the eye issues (can't confidently say for the mucus though without seeing it however)

 

[bambooshark]

I don't really trust other forums as much as was wondering if you all know whether freshwater ich has non copper based, in tank medicines that work. My friend's nano planted tank is having this issue. Weirdly enough, several died over night (oxygen isn't a big issue in this tank I wouldn't think), and the tetras had bulging eyes and the beta covered in mucus. The beta has a white looking mouth when she found it. The tetras do for sure have ich at the moment. Thoughts? I am guessing its a bacterial infection on the beta such as columnaris. The rasbora had the same thing as the beta. The beta also looked like it had a sore at some point. I was thinking of having her add 2ppt instant ocean salt and adding kanaplex. I am worried though about adding the kanaplex till the ich is gone as I don't want to disrupt their microbiome during an ich infection. Alternatively, she cna remove the fish and have them treated outside the tank. I don't know the life cycle of fw ich at 85F which is the temp the tank is at.

There is one called ICH-X. It worked well with my betta, so give it a try

 

[bambooshark]

It is non copper based

 

[Spare time]

Fortunately if it is indeed ich and not velvet then raising the temperature to about 86F and adding aquarium salt will be the best options in the case of a planted tank.
Unfortunately while malachite green is extremely effective on freshwater ich, it's also typically very effective at nuking a lot of plant species as well though.
Are you dosing kanamycin for potential secondary infections? I could be entirely wrong but I'm not really aware of it being effective on freshwater ich

Edit: I further read your post more thoroughly and noticed the mention of bulging eyes/possibly bacterial growth.
Do you happen to have her water parameters(ammonia,nitrite,nitrate)? Regular use of kanamycin if the directions are followed will greatly improve water quality (due to the every other day 25% water change) but to my knowledge, erythromycin is typically more effective on the eye issues (can't confidently say for the mucus though without seeing it however)

Her water quality is fine. My plan was to have her take the fish out for a month and treat them with paraguard, ich x, or malachite green. Kanaplex would follow if and only if infections are happening.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Salt and heat will be the simplest, most effective freshwater ich treatment. This can, however, harm plants during the treatment.

 

[Spare time]

Salt and heat will be the simplest, most effective freshwater ich treatment. This can, however, harm plants during the treatment.

I am wondering if metronidazole works for fw ich as it would cover some other bases. Otherwise, I am leaning towards paraguard or ich-x. I just really hate aldehyde based products (especially since my friend already has cancer).

 

[C_AWOL]

I am wondering if metronidazole works for fw ich as it would cover some other bases. Otherwise, I am leaning towards paraguard or ich-x. I just really hate aldehyde based products (especially since my friend already has cancer).

I don't think there's really a need to go that nuclear for just freshwater ich. The only concerning thing is the fact that eye bulge was mentioned and some currently unidentified mucus is present.
While you did say her water parameters are fine, I can't say that the idea of physical damage being the cause seems likely for small tetra species. Did she make some purchases recently and if so, how long ago since that mass die off has occurred?
For all we know it could be that these were new purchases and they unhealthy(not exhibiting visual cues of disease?) to begin with (thus would explain the water testing out fine in her tank) which is why we're in this situation to begin with.

 

[Spare time]

I don't think there's really a need to go that nuclear for just freshwater ich. The only concerning thing is the fact that eye bulge was mentioned and some currently unidentified mucus is present.
While you did say her water parameters are fine, I can't say that the idea of physical damage being the cause seems likely for small tetra species. Did she make some purchases recently and if so, how long ago since that mass die off has occurred?
For all we know it could be that these were new purchases and they unhealthy(not exhibiting visual cues of disease?) to begin with (thus would explain the water testing out fine in her tank) which is why we're in this situation to begin with.

Given that several fish are dead that have been there for a while and there are plants and inverts in the tank, I don't see why its not the best option. I am pretty sure they died yesterday. I am pretty sure ich came in recently and that two fish got a bacterial infection as a secondary issue.

 

[C_AWOL]

Given that several fish are dead that have been there for a while and there are plants and inverts in the tank, I don't see why its not the best option. I am pretty sure they died yesterday. I am pretty sure ich came in recently and that two fish got a bacterial infection as a secondary issue.

To clarify by going nuclear, there's no need to dose everything under the moon if it is indeed ich. Salt and elevated temperatures will be more than adequate to handle it and going nuclear I don't think will make the situation any better for the overall health of the system(plants and inverts).

The fact that there's pop-eye + an unknown mucus without a good way to do an ID (No provided photos) does complicate things (Velvet?, Columnaris?, Unlikely Vibrio?,Physical damage?, Bacterial infection of sort?, All that's listed and then some?)

I feel like there's a possibility that it could be a lot more than that going on based on the perceived timeline (I don't recall freshwater ich to be a rapid killer unless the infection is severe based on years of experience with discus and loaches) and thus worry that if I (or we) are misidentifying what's going on, then we're simply worsening things like velvet(oodinium) for example from memory would be best handled without raising the temperature (accelerates life cycle) + black out (photosynthetic) + formalin/copper treatment outside of the display since all those options will murder plants and inverts (not the inverts with black outs)

If it is indeed columnaris which is one of the things you suspected, then copper (more widely available than formalin at proper concentration) will be entirely ineffective and nitrofurazone would be more of the medication of choice (unless theres something better now days)

While there currently is 0 provided evidence of it being vibrio (just for examples sake), I don't recall any great ways of dealing with that back then besides doing a full system restart after bleaching the tank (maybe there's a great way to handle it now?)

Perhaps @Jay Hemdal can validate/criticize(or correct) what I have to say about this and add more info/recommendations/ask the right questions

 

[Spare time]

To clarify by going nuclear, there's no need to dose everything under the moon if it is indeed ich. Salt and elevated temperatures will be more than adequate to handle it and going nuclear I don't think will make the situation any better for the overall health of the system(plants and inverts).

The fact that there's pop-eye + an unknown mucus without a good way to do an ID (No provided photos) does complicate things (Velvet?, Columnaris?, Unlikely Vibrio?,Physical damage?, Bacterial infection of sort?, All that's listed and then some?)

I feel like there's a possibility that it could be a lot more than that going on based on the perceived timeline (I don't recall freshwater ich to be a rapid killer unless the infection is severe based on years of experience with discus and loaches) and thus worry that if I (or we) are misidentifying what's going on, then we're simply worsening things like velvet(oodinium) for example from memory would be best handled without raising the temperature (accelerates life cycle) + black out (photosynthetic) + formalin/copper treatment outside of the display since all those options will murder plants and inverts (not the inverts with black outs)

If it is indeed columnaris which is one of the things you suspected, then copper (more widely available than formalin at proper concentration) will be entirely ineffective and nitrofurazone would be more of the medication of choice (unless theres something better now days)

While there currently is 0 provided evidence of it being vibrio (just for examples sake), I don't recall any great ways of dealing with that back then besides doing a full system restart after bleaching the tank (maybe there's a great way to handle it now?)

Perhaps @Jay Hemdal can validate/criticize(or correct) what I have to say about this and add more info/recommendations/ask the right questions

Its not regular pop eye. That doesn't happen to all fish overnight. That is the bizarre thing. The salt will damage the plants and maybe hurt the inverts (not sure about the inverts). They'd be fine without fish.


Really the main thing is I want to know if for sure the medicines in question will treat the ich outside of the tank in a QT.

 

[C_AWOL]

Its not regular pop eye. That doesn't happen to all fish overnight. That is the bizarre thing. The salt will damage the plants and maybe hurt the inverts (not sure about the inverts). They'd be fine without fish.


Really the main thing is I want to know if for sure the medicines in question will treat the ich outside of the tank in a QT.

If we're talking about treating ich outside the display then virtually everything is usable and effective. Any brand malachite green formulations (nox-ich, ich-x, etc) + salt of 2-3tsp per gallon (depending on species of fish) + 86F will handle freshwater ich with 0 issues.

The same will apply for all other disease possibilities but keep in mind for velvet I don't think theres a "fallow" period due to its photosynthetic nature (from memory) so a black out period (I can't recall how long would be necessary) will be required (in which case raising the temperature to accelerate its life cycle will be helpful)

Keep in mind that depending on the plant species that she has, anubias, ferns, and a lot of mosses can tolerate 2 tsp per gallon just fine along with nerite snails and non neocardinia/cardinia shrimp from memory.