1st ever ICP on a 3 year old tank need suggestions

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Fluoride isn't a cure-all, there may be other reasons for the zoa melting syndrome (pests, low nutrients, bacterial infections ect), but in tanks that contain under 1mg/l it should help.

You have some pics of how your zoas look now?

literally only got a few left and they are really really small. most of them just shrank until they were gone even though they were open

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have the feeling, that the fact tanks were maintained solely by water changes in the past, is the reason zoa melting is so widespread nowadays. Many reefers have changed their maintenance to dosing and replenishing elements instead, but without offering the complete spectrum. I don't know what kind of biological effects fluorine has on corals but due to my and other reefers observations, zoanthids definitely need it.

It's a similar situation with strontium. We don't know if it has any biological relevance, but better keep it at natural levels to avoid another reason of failure.

I agree it may be more conservative to maintain natural levels, and is a fine plan, but I am not convinced strontium has any value for most of our organisms, and IMO, the evidence of fluoride need is not there (yet).

 

[Tavero]

literally only got a few left and they are really really small. most of them just shrank until they were gone even though they were open

If only a few polyps are left they may be already too far gone to recover. But if despite all they bounce back it would be nice of you to write small conclusion here or even better there:

Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

Given the crazy amount of information out there, along with endless accounts of experienced reefers who out of nowhere begin to struggle keeping zoanthids long term. I wanted to make a dedicated post where I document all of my attempts at solving my miserable and dying zoanthid collection...

www.reef2reef.com

That way we can collect evidence for zoanthid remedies.

I agree it may be more conservative to maintain natural levels, and is a fine plan, but I am not convinced strontium has any value for most of our organisms, and IMO, the evidence of fluoride need is not there (yet).

Sure, but it will probably take a few more decades until we get scientific evidence of these fluorine requirements. Until then anecdotal evidence has to suffice. I mean we aquarists are usually faster than scientists in solving saltwater related issues anyway.
I am trying to get more evidence about Zoanthids but it's a longer process. Most people that have or haven't solved their issues rarely reply back so it's hard to collect the data.

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

If only a few polyps are left they may be already too far gone to recover. But if despite all they bounce back it would be nice of you to write small conclusion here or even better there:

Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

Given the crazy amount of information out there, along with endless accounts of experienced reefers who out of nowhere begin to struggle keeping zoanthids long term. I wanted to make a dedicated post where I document all of my attempts at solving my miserable and dying zoanthid collection...

www.reef2reef.com

That way we can collect evidence for zoanthid remedies.

Yeah for sure!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sure, but it will probably take a few more decades until we get scientific evidence of these fluorine requirements. Until then anecdotal evidence has to suffice. I mean we aquarists are usually faster than scientists in solving saltwater related issues anyway.
I am trying to get more evidence about Zoanthids but it's a longer process. Most people that have or haven't solved their issues rarely reply back so it's hard to collect the data.

The problem, IMO, is that folks dosing fluoride for the first time and seeing an improvement (whoever they may be, I’ve not seen lots of these) are often the same folks dosing a lot of other things for the first time. To pick out fluoride and get even anecdotal evidence requires just that one change at a time.

 

[Tavero]

The problem, IMO, is that folks dosing fluoride for the first time and seeing an improvement (whoever they may be, I’ve not seen lots of these) are often the same folks dosing a lot of other things for the first time. To pick out fluoride and get even anecdotal evidence requires just that one change at a time.

Hey that means the quality of these results is at least as good as in american food studies . Not great, I know, but a start. And we don't work for the corporate fluoride kartel so compared to these studies, there is no conflict of interest.

I know about the difficulty with design of experiments. At least for me and another reefer, fluoride dosing was the only change we did. Not a lot but that's why I try to recommend aquarists that have otherwise great water parameters to check fluoride and report back. Many experienced reefers have already tried everything else.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I never had great success with zooanthids, though I only tried a few times.

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Well 2 part was setup last night and started adding fluorine also doing the 5 gallons a day water change will update if I noticed any improvements.

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Already starting to see the frogspawn open up a little bit here's a pic from before and then todays.

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Thanks for the help guys the tank is already looking 100 times better. I had some old monti plate that had fallen behind rockwork and I pulled it out it was pretty much all white and in the past week it's already made a huge comeback got a good 50% of colour back and polyps are extended.
New heads on palys
I had a candy cane that had 4 of the heads with multiple mouths on them for months but never splitting and they have all started or have split.
Dkh back up to 7.5 salinity 1.026
I dosed the 6 days of fluorine as instructed on the icp so that should be close if not perfect same with iodine
I've had the 2 part going as well plus 5% daily water change.

Now I've done the instructed amount of fluorine I was thinking I'd stop that until I get an ICP at the end of the month as I'm sure if I kept doing those amounts it would be way too much at it was 38ml a day for 6 days which is a heck of a lot compared to everything else and see where its at after the next test. Maybe next time it won't be so bad and I can do like a couple drops a day or something.

My zoas haven't shown and new polyps however they have all opened and I'd like to think they are slightly bigger. Can't say that was because of the fluorine because I've done lots to the tanks chemistry than just that.

Actually seeing such a turn around fast is really rewarding tho and all I can say is thanks!

Will keep up with the water changes and just see what the next ICP is like in a couple weeks

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Oh and I got this pic

 

[MnFish1]

Very nice. Glad it is helping. It would have been nice to see what would have happened without the fluorine (i.e. just the water changes) - but the important thing is that things look better. (Im betting it was mostly the water changes myself)

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

Very nice. Glad it is helping. It would have been nice to see what would have happened without the fluorine (i.e. just the water changes) - but the important thing is that things look better. (Im betting it was mostly the water changes myself)

Yes I think that also plus the 2 part getting the alk back up from 5

 

[Tavero]

Thanks for the help guys the tank is already looking 100 times better. I had some old monti plate that had fallen behind rockwork and I pulled it out it was pretty much all white and in the past week it's already made a huge comeback got a good 50% of colour back and polyps are extended.
New heads on palys
I had a candy cane that had 4 of the heads with multiple mouths on them for months but never splitting and they have all started or have split.
Dkh back up to 7.5 salinity 1.026
I dosed the 6 days of fluorine as instructed on the icp so that should be close if not perfect same with iodine
I've had the 2 part going as well plus 5% daily water change.

Now I've done the instructed amount of fluorine I was thinking I'd stop that until I get an ICP at the end of the month as I'm sure if I kept doing those amounts it would be way too much at it was 38ml a day for 6 days which is a heck of a lot compared to everything else and see where its at after the next test. Maybe next time it won't be so bad and I can do like a couple drops a day or something.

My zoas haven't shown and new polyps however they have all opened and I'd like to think they are slightly bigger. Can't say that was because of the fluorine because I've done lots to the tanks chemistry than just that.

Actually seeing such a turn around fast is really rewarding tho and all I can say is thanks!

Will keep up with the water changes and just see what the next ICP is like in a couple weeks

Yeah montipora and candy canes are pretty hardy. As long as the issue is fixed (light, salinity) they should recover. I don't think your zoas would recover so fast without fluoride dosing but with all the other changes its not clear evidence.

But hey. You could just stop dosing fluoride and if the zoanthids close up again while the salinity is fine, you know the reason.
I actually use my zoanthids as fluoride indicator. I figured out that if they close up and I then dose fluoride, they open up a few days later again. I checked with a few ICP OES so I don't overdose, but there was definitely a correlation.

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

So I had a 2nd ICP done.

Almost everything was perfect other than a few things that were on the lower side of good.
The main one being the Salinity which of course effects everything so that would bring them up into the very good range.

Turned out my refractometer was out. Mine reading was 1.026 and the ICP was 1.023.
I took my water to a LFS who tested it at 1.024
So I bought a hanna checker now and that confirmed 1.023

I think I'll increase the salinity and leave it a couple months before the next one.

This way of water keeping is just so much better than before. The corals are thriving

 

[MnFish1]

So I had a 2nd ICP done.

Almost everything was perfect other than a few things that were on the lower side of good.
The main one being the Salinity which of course effects everything so that would bring them up into the very good range.

Turned out my refractometer was out. Mine reading was 1.026 and the ICP was 1.023.
I took my water to a LFS who tested it at 1.024
So I bought a hanna checker now and that confirmed 1.023

I think I'll increase the salinity and leave it a couple months before the next one.

This way of water keeping is just so much better than before. The corals are thriving

I think you should stop relying on ICP?

 

[CornishCrustyCorals]

I think you should stop relying on ICP?

I mean its helping dial in everything that was totally messed up so for now its helped a lot. It will be nice to get one done and everything is good knowing that I can then just maintain how I am doing things and then should only need a ICP every what 4 - 6 months?
If I hadn't had the 2nd low Salinity result I would never had known my water was not what I thought it was.
Its working for me is all im saying