#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

[brandon429]

Sticks
Let's compare results against a certain type of peroxide method, find two entrants let's work and document side by side - this is good for the discovery of new methods. Example logging is where it's at. The initial kill isn't the challenge, the report after six months will be... Gotta get some examples logged here so we can start the timeline

Until a single work example is linked, edit out the description of post one to say the curled edge pre used sticky note of possible algae control has been provided. matter of fact let's forego any actual application and instead opt for pure type certainty from everyone for the next four pages...accountability ruins the fun

 

[Lasse]

One important thing - the CUC (or not even the fish) are a bioload - the bioload is only depended of the external nutrients you put in every day as food. The rest is only just recirculation and fixation in biomass.

And there is a lot of working tanks that show that grazing is of huge importance

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ca1ore]

I think there are many ways to manage algae (you never can fully eradicate it). What the OP articulates is simply one approach. Personally I find the OCD removal of detritus largely pointless. It's home to a myriad benthic creatures in my tank and, to the degree that I can test it, most of it seems mineralized and inert anyhow - in other words, it's already shared its nutrients with the water. I don't even vacuum my sand bed. I also strongly disagree with the suggestion that adding herbivores is a bad idea. It's what nature does, so I shall take my cue from that. I have many different kinds of algae growing in my frag tank but almost none in the display - what's the difference? Herbivores. I do agree that adding chemicals should be the approach of last resort, and I have never done a blackout.

It is also true that ammonia/ammonium is an excellent plant food, and will always exist in a transitional (but unmeasurable) form in your tank.

 

[dantimdad]

CUC and patience. That is all.

Brandon you need to calm down. Really. This have evidence, have evidence is ridiculous. You even copy and paste the same sentence in every thread that doesn't adhere to your extremism. There is hundreds of years of combined experience by dozens of us long term reef keepers as evidence.

I have been on this earth for over 50 years and in this hobby for now over 30. PATIENCE and NATURE are the keys to just about everything. STOP overreacting and taking everything as a challenge to your methods. If people don't want to use your method or believe in them (which I and a LOT of experienced aquarists don't) leave them alone.

 

[EmdeReef]

Ammonia in many instances is the preferred source of nitrogen for algae, there’s evidence that may not always be the case (can be googled for those curious) whether due to generally lower availability or evolution... I think it’s too simplistic to say ignore nitrite/nitrate and phosphate and blame ammonia.

In a properly cycled tank, nitrifying bacteria will be highly likely (possibly always) to outcompete algae in taking up ammonia. Residual ammonia will be taken up by algae and other organisms but I would have serious reservations and questions about whether that’s enough to cause blooms many see in tanks.

Detritus for the most part, after a period of time, should have low or zero nutritional value...but it’s a separate topic.

 

[S-t-r-e-t-c-h]

By chance I was reading on @Battlecorals site this morning and thought that this was sort of relevant:

https://battlecorals.com/blogs/blog/111998151-sps-suck-the-acro-fugium-write-up

 

[sde1500]

Second request for basic proof.

Yea, 2nd request in under 12 hours...
More than one way to skin a cat, maintain a reef, etc. While I am of the camp that doesn't view detritus in the sump as a bad thing, I can see value in the information provided. Even if it was delivered in a bit of a hokey method.

 

[dantimdad]

Yea, 2nd request in under 12 hours...
More than one way to skin a cat, maintain a reef, etc. While I am of the camp that doesn't view detritus in the sump as a bad thing, I can see value in the information provided. Even if it was delivered in a bit of a hokey method.

Amen.

 

[EmdeReef]

Amen.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

I have clarified my original post, certain areas were not being received how I intended them to.

Also, please remember that this is a strategy suited around teaching good practices and patience to entry level / mid level aquarists; changing their ideas about the role of algae in their aquarium.

This is more of a walk before you can sprint strategy. Things like DSBs (deep sand beds 4"+), dosing, and 0 nutrient export are simply impractical and not viable suggestions to somebody with 0-4 years in the hobby. Those are strategies that require more patience, more experience, and far more knowledge about the aquarium ecosystem. Most of the beginner aquarists dont even have sumps yet...

I personally gave up trying the dsb and no nutrient export strategies as I didn't have success. The algae bible is what I find to be successful, lower risk, less maintenance, even after 10 years.

______________________

7. do not add more snails, shrimp, fish or other animals to the system to FIX your algae, initially. You should already be running a tank with these inhabitants, otherwise nicknamed the Clean Up Crew (CUC). These animals will bring your ecosystem full circle, and play an important role in turning algae back into food for bacteria.
AFTER you've addressed the detritus build up issue, consider readdressing your stock list to include more CUC members, such as snails, shrimps gobies, and everybody's favorite fish, the lawnmower blenny.

8. do not go overboard with detritus removal. Your existing bacteria and corals need decaying detritus to remain healthy. The focus is not to starve your algae into oblivion, but to control the algae so bacteria have a chance to repopulate and take the algaes place. Bacteria repopulation is our main objective, not total detritus removal, not 0-5 nitrates, not 0 phosphates, not low ammonia production, as those are inherently unhealthy and now finally dated practices.

 

[brandon429]

SDE good call. his detritus info I find matching big work threads/long term results threads, its got potential

but a work example of more than one tank introduces the noncompliants, sooo tricky. its not the test of the song its a test of the conductor. run this approach through a single 3 year algae correction thread tuned out a few pages/truth

 

[Fish_Sticks]

SDE good call. his detritus info I find matching big work threads/long term results threads, its got potential

but a work example of more than one tank introduces the noncompliants, sooo tricky. its not the test of the song its a test of the conductor. run this approach through a single 3 year algae correction thread tuned out a few pages/truth

The algae bible isn't a new strategy. I've simply compiled all the information into one place that I've picked up over the past decade. All this info has been fragmented across the forums since I started. Its a strategy that has been around and used for a very long time, just told in pieces. At least now its all in one place for us to discuss, acknowledge, and try to improve upon.

 

[Nburg's Reef]

Any one using thing? Metaphorically and literally.

It’s Julian’s Thing. (Pun intended) ;Yuck

I use it for a ton of things. (And another pun). It is a standard in my cleaning bucket. It gets behind and under rocks to hit spots with low flow. You would be surprised the cloud that comes out. Same as the turkey blaster but can keep your hands clean. I also use it for target feeding, filling it with Kalk to get aptasia and dose things into my sump where I can’t reach.

Really help blow out hard to get areas

I use this mostly for feeding. I cut the tip so can blast mysis at anemones. Maybe I should buy more ends and have an uncut tip for more focused blasting.

 

[Hermie]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate that people here ask for evidence when broad claims are brought

 

[HB AL]

Didn’t read it all but with nitrates between 10 and 20 and no idea on phosphate levels and no algae, and lots of healthy growing colored up corals, if the ammonia theory is true I definitely don’t have any in my tank. The ammonia thing kinda makes sense and would be easy to prove. Start a tank, let ammonia build up keep nitrates and phosphates at 0, and see if lots of algae grows.

 

[RobZilla04]

Didn’t read it all but with nitrates between 10 and 20 and no idea on phosphate levels and no algae, and lots of healthy growing colored up corals, if the ammonia theory is true I definitely don’t have any in my tank. The ammonia thing kinda makes sense and would be easy to prove. Start a tank, let ammonia build up keep nitrates and phosphates at 0, and see if lots of algae grows.

How is that even possible?

If the nitrogen cycle, simplified, is Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates wouldn't one be unable to keep Nitrates = 0 and increase Ammonia without supplementing it in large volume frequently?

Of course I'm no chemist, few here are. Just a reefer trying to keep things simple & stable.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

How is that even possible?

If the nitrogen cycle, simplified, is Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates wouldn't one be unable to keep Nitrates = 0 and increase Ammonia without supplementing it in large volume frequently?

Of course I'm no chemist, few here are. Just a reefer trying to keep things simple & stable.

Its because his ammonia is being taken up by the bacteria at the rate it is created. There is no help from algae. If he increases his bioload by a significant margin, then algae will appear and can snowball into replacing bacteria.
Atleast thats what I like to beleive...

 

[Fish_Sticks]

This thread is drifting away from what the algae bible is supposed to be, which is combating an algae outbreak, and more towards how to maintenance your tank and tank strategy. So let me find old photos of my 75g.

 

[HB AL]

You could dose to keep nitrate near zero and phosgaurd or gfo to keep phosphates near zero.
Just have rocks in tank, no fish a decent strong light and add food or sraight ammonia and see if algae grows. I really don’t care was just chiming in with an idea to test the ammonia= algae theory the guy posted.

 

[sbash]

How is that even possible?

If the nitrogen cycle, simplified, is Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates wouldn't one be unable to keep Nitrates = 0 and increase Ammonia without supplementing it in large volume frequently?

Of course I'm no chemist, few here are. Just a reefer trying to keep things simple & stable.

I think what HB is trying to demonstrate is that the algae would consume the ammonia before the nitrifying bacteria, therefore nitrates won't go up.

That said, the experiment is a bit moot, as we already know (because of science) that algae does indeed consume ammonia (more specifically ammonium). Therefore if it consumes any other form of nitrogen it must convert it to ammonium so the plant can actually use it.