Yellow Tang Bacterial Infection, or something else?

[blecki]

#fishmedic

I thought I was dealing with a bacterial infection and while it still looks like one to me, but I'm coming out of the 3-round kanaplex treatment and not seeing any improvement so seeking a second opinion.

The facts:
* Two biota yellow tangs I've had since April 19th, so, a month and a half. They've have been eating like pigs and have fattened up nicely; one of them has yellowed up, the other has not yellowed as much.
* As mentioned these are biota fish so I am fairly confident that anything affecting them is from my system and not something they came with.
* They are in a 75 gallon holding tank for grow out until they are big enough to not be murdered by the adult tangs in my tank.
* Diet has been mostly mastic and nori, both of which they have been observed eating as recently as today, with mysis/brine depending on which one I grab that day, and reef frenzy (but some of the chunks are too big for them; I do not think they eat much of this.) Along with grazing in the tank.
* Tank mates are 1 blind chromis and a fairy wrasse.
* I have seen some jousting but doesn't seem like either fish is keeping the other from eating.
* About 10 days ago the paler of the two developed red patches. This worsened very quickly until Friday, when I started kanaplex.
* Kanaplex Friday, Sunday, Tuesday; last dose Tuesday morning.
* They have also received metroplex bound into mastic with focus.
* The paler tang does not seem to have improved (Though perhaps it stopped getting worse?)
* Today the other tang showed the very early signs of small pink spots.
* Looking closely at the red patches on the paler tang, there are very visible blood vessels. Up close it looks almost like the red could be entirely this. But there have been no salinity changes that could have caused capillary hemorrhage.
* Other fish show no signs - I would expect this to be relatively visible on the chromis; the wrasse is mostly purple already so it would be invisible on him.
* IME if it was uronema causing the redness it would have turned into an open wound and killed the fish in a few days after becoming visible.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Grow out tank
Aquarium water volume: 75
Filtration type: Live rock
Lighting: Irrelevant, black boxes
How long has the aquarium been established? The rock in this tank has been in a continuously running system for about 10 years...
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light: If you insist

It's basically a caulerpa farm. Might be illegal to view in CA.



Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
I've more or less ruled out water quality but I had a water change prepped for after the kanaplex treatment that is still going to get done tomorrow or Friday. Honestly the water quality is better than my display except that the caulerpa bottoms everything out.
Temperature: 76
pH: 8.1
Salinity / specific gravity: 29.1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0/undetectable
Phosphorus: Don't have a test at the moment, but, again. Caulerpa farm. Don't put caulerpa in your tank unless you want to permanently banish a pile of rock to your QT tank.
Copper: 0
Other

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below) No
Are any invertebrates affected? No
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): Elevated; I am terrible at counting these, but it is visibly much faster than the other tang. Of the two however this one is absolutely terrified of me and the other is not.
Are the affected fish still feeding? Yes
What remedies have you tried so far? Completed the recommend 3-dose round of kanaplex. Have bound metro into their mastic.
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -

 

[blecki]

Oh, thought of something: There were two urchins in the tank but I removed them before dosing kanaplex; they were present when the issue started. I know the longspine can (and has) sting me; but I have no idea what a sting would look like on a fish or how it could be this extensive.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oh, thought of something: There were two urchins in the tank but I removed them before dosing kanaplex; they were present when the issue started. I know the longspine can (and has) sting me; but I have no idea what a sting would look like on a fish or how it could be this extensive.

The redness I see is either or both- Bacterial and a vitamin deficiency. What foods are you feeding and what is your ammonia and nitrate level?
Anu other fish in tank and how do they look compared to the tang? I suggest either ruby rally pro in the tank and water change or isolate and treat with seachem neoplex

 

[blecki]

The redness I see is either or both- Bacterial and a vitamin deficiency. What foods are you feeding and what is your ammonia and nitrate level?

* Diet has been mostly mastic and nori, both of which they have been observed eating as recently as today, with mysis/brine depending on which one I grab that day, and reef frenzy (but some of the chunks are too big for them; I do not think they eat much of this.) Along with grazing in the tank.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0/undetectable

I hadn't considered vitamin deficiency given how quickly it came on. I suppose I can use selcon to mix up the mastic instead of rodi water.

Anu other fish in tank and how do they look compared to the tang?

* Other fish show no signs - I would expect this to be relatively visible on the chromis; the wrasse is mostly purple already so it would be invisible on him.

 

[MnFish1]

I would add more LRS, etc. I would also agree with the antibiotic (in a hospital tank)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

#fishmedic

I thought I was dealing with a bacterial infection and while it still looks like one to me, but I'm coming out of the 3-round kanaplex treatment and not seeing any improvement so seeking a second opinion.

The facts:
* Two biota yellow tangs I've had since April 19th, so, a month and a half. They've have been eating like pigs and have fattened up nicely; one of them has yellowed up, the other has not yellowed as much.
* As mentioned these are biota fish so I am fairly confident that anything affecting them is from my system and not something they came with.
* They are in a 75 gallon holding tank for grow out until they are big enough to not be murdered by the adult tangs in my tank.
* Diet has been mostly mastic and nori, both of which they have been observed eating as recently as today, with mysis/brine depending on which one I grab that day, and reef frenzy (but some of the chunks are too big for them; I do not think they eat much of this.) Along with grazing in the tank.
* Tank mates are 1 blind chromis and a fairy wrasse.
* I have seen some jousting but doesn't seem like either fish is keeping the other from eating.
* About 10 days ago the paler of the two developed red patches. This worsened very quickly until Friday, when I started kanaplex.
* Kanaplex Friday, Sunday, Tuesday; last dose Tuesday morning.
* They have also received metroplex bound into mastic with focus.
* The paler tang does not seem to have improved (Though perhaps it stopped getting worse?)
* Today the other tang showed the very early signs of small pink spots.
* Looking closely at the red patches on the paler tang, there are very visible blood vessels. Up close it looks almost like the red could be entirely this. But there have been no salinity changes that could have caused capillary hemorrhage.
* Other fish show no signs - I would expect this to be relatively visible on the chromis; the wrasse is mostly purple already so it would be invisible on him.
* IME if it was uronema causing the redness it would have turned into an open wound and killed the fish in a few days after becoming visible.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Grow out tank
Aquarium water volume: 75
Filtration type: Live rock
Lighting: Irrelevant, black boxes
How long has the aquarium been established? The rock in this tank has been in a continuously running system for about 10 years...
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light: If you insist

It's basically a caulerpa farm. Might be illegal to view in CA.



Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
I've more or less ruled out water quality but I had a water change prepped for after the kanaplex treatment that is still going to get done tomorrow or Friday. Honestly the water quality is better than my display except that the caulerpa bottoms everything out.
Temperature: 76
pH: 8.1
Salinity / specific gravity: 29.1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0/undetectable
Phosphorus: Don't have a test at the moment, but, again. Caulerpa farm. Don't put caulerpa in your tank unless you want to permanently banish a pile of rock to your QT tank.
Copper: 0
Other

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below) No
Are any invertebrates affected? No
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): Elevated; I am terrible at counting these, but it is visibly much faster than the other tang. Of the two however this one is absolutely terrified of me and the other is not.
Are the affected fish still feeding? Yes
What remedies have you tried so far? Completed the recommend 3-dose round of kanaplex. Have bound metro into their mastic.
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -

I used to call this "septicemia" - we would see it on wild caught yellow tangs pretty often. I haven't seen it on a Biota tang before. I haven't run into this in decades, so I'm not sure how I would treat it now days. In the past, we would use antibiotics, with varying degrees of success. I'm not fully convinced this is bacterial, it may be environmentally stress related.

One thing - does that tank have a lid on it? One thing to watch for, with all that algae, if you don't have REALLY good aeration (not just circulation) you can get a build up of carbon dioxide at night, when that algae goes into reverse phase photosynthesis and starts taking up oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide. You can test for this by measuring the pH right before the lights come on in the morning and then again in the late afternoon. If the pH meter is well calibrated, and you get the same high pH both times, all is good. However, if you get a low reading in the morning and a higher reading in the afternoon, you need to remove some algae and add aeration.

Jay

 

[blecki]

One thing - does that tank have a lid on it? One thing to watch for, with all that algae, if you don't have REALLY good aeration (not just circulation) you can get a build up of carbon dioxide at night, when that algae goes into reverse phase photosynthesis and starts taking up oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide. You can test for this by measuring the pH right before the lights come on in the morning and then again in the late afternoon. If the pH meter is well calibrated, and you get the same high pH both times, all is good. However, if you get a low reading in the morning and a higher reading in the afternoon, you need to remove some algae and add aeration.

Okay, I probably need a better PH test then. Yes, the tank has a lid, to keep the wrasse in (Wrasse is a refugee from my display tank, got beat to hell by the anthias - if he was the vector for any disease, well, they were going to catch it once in the display anyway) but also has an airstone in it and I've been keeping the lights dimmed but not off overnight to stop the algae sucking out all the oxygen - which I suppose could be another source of stress itself. Suppose I will yank out some caulerpa during the water change today.

I used to call this "septicemia" - we would see it on wild caught yellow tangs pretty often. I haven't seen it on a Biota tang before. I haven't run into this in decades, so I'm not sure how I would treat it now days. In the past, we would use antibiotics, with varying degrees of success. I'm not fully convinced this is bacterial, it may be environmentally stress related.

Assuming it is bacterial - how long should I wait before doing another round of kanaplex? What is the 'next step up' in terms of strength here - Amxycillin? Ciprofloxacin? I've never used them; this is the first time I've dealt with a bacterial infection that kanaplex didn't knock out. Vette mentions neoplex but I won't be able to get my hands on that until late next week; can get the other two off chewy.com a little quicker.
If it's stress related than - going to be tough. I could try separating them but if this fish can't handle a single sibling he's not going to make it in the display.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Okay, I probably need a better PH test then. Yes, the tank has a lid, to keep the wrasse in (Wrasse is a refugee from my display tank, got beat to hell by the anthias - if he was the vector for any disease, well, they were going to catch it once in the display anyway) but also has an airstone in it and I've been keeping the lights dimmed but not off overnight to stop the algae sucking out all the oxygen - which I suppose could be another source of stress itself. Suppose I will yank out some caulerpa during the water change today.


Assuming it is bacterial - how long should I wait before doing another round of kanaplex? What is the 'next step up' in terms of strength here - Amxycillin? Ciprofloxacin? I've never used them; this is the first time I've dealt with a bacterial infection that kanaplex didn't knock out. Vette mentions neoplex but I won't be able to get my hands on that until late next week; can get the other two off chewy.com a little quicker.
If it's stress related than - going to be tough. I could try separating them but if this fish can't handle a single sibling he's not going to make it in the display.

Choosing an antibiotic is always a guess unless a sensitivity test is done (culturing it). I've tried to culture these lesions on wild yellow tangs, but because they are on the surface of the fish, all I managed to do was culture every bacteria that was in the water.

I'd skip amoxicillin (not very stable). A lot of people use cipro. You can run a search here for doses. The one dose I have in my formulary is 7.5 mg/l dosed every three days with a water change prior to each dose for three treatments.

 

[blecki]

Choosing an antibiotic is always a guess unless a sensitivity test is done (culturing it). I've tried to culture these lesions on wild yellow tangs, but because they are on the surface of the fish, all I managed to do was culture every bacteria that was in the water.

I'd skip amoxicillin (not very stable). A lot of people use cipro. You can run a search here for doses. The one dose I have in my formulary is 7.5 mg/l dosed every three days with a water change prior to each dose for three treatments.

I wanted to clarify that though they are on the surface I can also clearly see blood vessels under the surface at these spots, and it seems to be deep in the tissue as well at for example the base of the pectoral fins.


Update -

The fish with the condition above does not appear to have improved; maybe a slight improvement, but has at least stopped getting worse.
The other tang is showing early signs of the same condition, but where the first came on very suddenly - this guy just as a little redness on his tail; a single small mark on his side; and it seems to be progressing very slowly.

Changes I've made: I pulled out probably 10 gallons by volume of caulerpa and did the planned 20% water change. I've also lowered the temperature a little. I've been feeding a little more heavily - getting LRS reef frenzy into these guys is a challenge as they are so skittish that it can sink before they come out and investigate it. They continue to eat mastic and nori and graze.

I have not seen any difference in PH at different times of the day. Have a handheld ph probe on the way.

No new antibiotic yet. Coming out of the kanaplex treatment the tank developed a slight haze so I'm assuming the kanaplex disturbed the balance in the tank a little and I'd like to let it settle before I try something else.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I wanted to clarify that though they are on the surface I can also clearly see blood vessels under the surface at these spots, and it seems to be deep in the tissue as well at for example the base of the pectoral fins.


Update -

The fish with the condition above does not appear to have improved; maybe a slight improvement, but has at least stopped getting worse.
The other tang is showing early signs of the same condition, but where the first came on very suddenly - this guy just as a little redness on his tail; a single small mark on his side; and it seems to be progressing very slowly.

Changes I've made: I pulled out probably 10 gallons by volume of caulerpa and did the planned 20% water change. I've also lowered the temperature a little. I've been feeding a little more heavily - getting LRS reef frenzy into these guys is a challenge as they are so skittish that it can sink before they come out and investigate it. They continue to eat mastic and nori and graze.

I have not seen any difference in PH at different times of the day. Have a handheld ph probe on the way.

No new antibiotic yet. Coming out of the kanaplex treatment the tank developed a slight haze so I'm assuming the kanaplex disturbed the balance in the tank a little and I'd like to let it settle before I try something else.

That’s why this goes by the common name “septicemia” because it looks like the internal blood vessels are involved.

Be sure to monitor the ammonia in case the kanaplex harmed your nitrifiers.

 

[blecki]

Any validity to the theory that it's caused by fighting?

The one that first showed the issue has taken to swimming in the top corner, which I associate with bullying. Going to try and separate them.

Both seem to be slightly worse today; kanaplex treatment may have held it off but not stopped it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Any validity to the theory that it's caused by fighting?

The one that first showed the issue has taken to swimming in the top corner, which I associate with bullying. Going to try and separate them.

Both seem to be slightly worse today; kanaplex treatment may have held it off but not stopped it.

I used to think that “stress” will cause this as we most often saw it on newly acquired yellow tangs, we attributed the issue to “shipping stress”. Other people would say “ammonia burns”, but I’m not so sure about that. Weird thing is that I see this in yellow tangs, but not other species…..

 

[blecki]

Other people would say “ammonia burns”, but I’m not so sure about that.

Yet to see anything register on the ammonia test.

They have been separated - guess I'll see if it has any affect.

 

[blecki]

@Jay Hemdal How long should I let this sit before treating again? Fish are currently separated and the one that developed symptoms later continues to worsen at a slow pace. Can't really tell if the other is getting better. Both eat, though I don't believe with quite the same enthusiasm as they were before. I've been feeding mostly selcon soaked LRS the last week. Been a week now since they finished Kanaplex. I have enough of that for another round; and also have Metroplex and Neoplex now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal How long should I let this sit before treating again? Fish are currently separated and the one that developed symptoms later continues to worsen at a slow pace. Can't really tell if the other is getting better. Both eat, though I don't believe with quite the same enthusiasm as they were before. I've been feeding mostly selcon soaked LRS the last week. Been a week now since they finished Kanaplex. I have enough of that for another round; and also have Metroplex and Neoplex now.

I would try the Neoplex now - since the fish is still worsening. I don’t see metroplex as helping, it has some efficacy in treating anaerobic bacteria, but any bacteria outside a fish is going to be aerobic.

 

[blecki]

Did three rounds of neoplex. It seemed to have a small effect - I dosed on Fridays, fish would look better on Sunday, but be back where it was again by the next Friday. Somewhere during the last round 'lefty' (as we'd taken to calling him) figured out how to get around the egg-crate barrier so he could harass his sibling again. Righty cleared up and stayed clear. After the third round of neoplex I stopped per the instructions. Lefty got worse again. I held off on another antibiotic because I was going out of town - I was gone for part of last week, planning to move righty when I got back and just let lefty exist in the QT system for however long it took.

But I came home too... two fish I can barely tell apart. I had planned to move righty to the big tank last weekend but didn't get salinity matched in time; and since lefty is apparently healthy, I moved both yesterday. They're dealing with the stress of being the new tangs in a tank that already has tangs right now so if it's stress related maybe there will be a flareup again.

Right now lefty is just 'a little pinkish', If you didn't know it already you wouldn't notice.

So I guess it's somewhere on a spectrum between 'did all the exact right things to cure it' and 'everything I did actually made it worse and delayed recovery'.