Wrasse in QT help diagnosing and treating

[ziggyjane07]

Hi All,
Just wondering if anyone can shed some light into what was happening to my juv checkerboard wrasse..
all my fish have been in qt since the 24.3.22 however I had to move my wrasse to a new tank about the 5.4.22 because at first I thought it was a serious swim bladder issue or even some sort of bacterial issue. He couldn’t even really eat and buried for significant amounts of time. But did this video to see if anyone can see and advise on what I maybe missing.
Originally everyone came out because of velvet. The wrasse has had smaller exposure to cuperamine (1-1.5ppm) but I stopped and had given metro and kanaplex and have in the water as he seems to only pop out a little now to try and feed. He’s not so floating up right like he was.
but what could I possibly be dealing with.
parameters are 1.025,
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Temp sitting at 25 degrees Celsius but wanting to get up too 27 degrees Celsius if I can. (Typical QT tank)
I should say all other 5 fish are normal and seem to be recovering ok besides a little tank aggro from being cooped up.

thanks

Ps sorry I couldn’t get one when he seemed like a swim bladder issue could get a good enough vid without burying again.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi All,
Just wondering if anyone can shed some light into what was happening to my juv checkerboard wrasse..
all my fish have been in qt since the 24.3.22 however I had to move my wrasse to a new tank about the 5.4.22 because at first I thought it was a serious swim bladder issue or even some sort of bacterial issue. He couldn’t even really eat and buried for significant amounts of time. But did this video to see if anyone can see and advise on what I maybe missing.
Originally everyone came out because of velvet. The wrasse has had smaller exposure to cuperamine (1-1.5ppm) but I stopped and had given metro and kanaplex and have in the water as he seems to only pop out a little now to try and feed. He’s not so floating up right like he was.
but what could I possibly be dealing with.
parameters are 1.025,
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Temp sitting at 25 degrees Celsius but wanting to get up too 27 degrees Celsius if I can. (Typical QT tank)
I should say all other 5 fish are normal and seem to be recovering ok besides a little tank aggro from being cooped up.

thanks

Ps sorry I couldn’t get one when he seemed like a swim bladder issue could get a good enough vid without burying again.

Any pics of fish under white lighting ?
how was fish acclimated ?
What test kits are you using?

 

[ziggyjane07]

Any pics of fish under white lighting ?
how was fish acclimated ?
What test kits are you using?

I’ll try to get one, only comes out once maybe every 4-5days.
normal drip acclimated when I got him back in November last year, then the drip acclimate into the qt tank for 15mins even though the tank salinity of the tanks are all the same and sit at the same temps.. no ammonia, or nitrate.
I have checked with hanna checkers, sera, api, nyos. Just in case I missed something.
He has seemed unwell for the last couple of months. Went from coming up to u at the glass to hiding, swimming ‘bent’ and flashing and swimming with like some type of tremor.
it took a while to get all the fish out of main tank to quarantine as I had to get rocks and everything out to catch them all..
but he’s not been right for the last couple of months and since qt much worse.
Thanks for the reply

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’ll try to get one, only comes out once maybe every 4-5days.
normal drip acclimated when I got him back in November last year, then the drip acclimate into the qt tank for 15mins even though the tank salinity of the tanks are all the same and sit at the same temps.. no ammonia, or nitrate.
I have checked with hanna checkers, sera, api, nyos. Just in case I missed something.
He has seemed unwell for the last couple of months. Went from coming up to u at the glass to hiding, swimming ‘bent’ and flashing and swimming with like some type of tremor.
it took a while to get all the fish out of main tank to quarantine as I had to get rocks and everything out to catch them all..
but he’s not been right for the last couple of months and since qt much worse.
Thanks for the reply

I wanted to clarify something, you said you dose "cuperamine (1-1.5ppm)". Cupramine's full dose is 0.56 ppm. Your dose is too high as written, was there a typo?

While not identical to this, you did mention some neurological symptoms, and we are seeing a lot of that in wrasses. The two leading culprits seem to be viral disease or internal worm infestations.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/unknown-neurological-wrasse-disease-unwd.901856/


Jay

 

[ziggyjane07]

Hi Jay, yes sorry typo 1-1.5 mg/l it was suppose to say
After reading that, it is interesting that it possibly has coincided with some sort of viral or worm infestation! I couldn’t say which, as I’m quite new to fish disease and diagnoses, however I would say the change I noticed started with some flashing around 2 months ago.
The prognosis doesn’t look great at all having read that, so I’m wondering should I do a prazi run now, maybe a lower dose?

I do add metro and kanaplex to water and he doesn’t do the totally upright having trouble swimming and floating to the top constantly type thing now. Just unsure of the direction with it??
Thank you - again

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay, yes sorry typo 1-1.5 mg/l it was suppose to say
After reading that, it is interesting that it possibly has coincided with some sort of viral or worm infestation! I couldn’t say which, as I’m quite new to fish disease and diagnoses, however I would say the change I noticed started with some flashing around 2 months ago.
The prognosis doesn’t look great at all having read that, so I’m wondering should I do a prazi run now, maybe a lower dose?

I do add metro and kanaplex to water and he doesn’t do the totally upright having trouble swimming and floating to the top constantly type thing now. Just unsure of the direction with it??
Thank you - again

I'm not clear on a course of action either. I doubt that it is that UNWD due to the length of time you've had the fish.

Have you done a full dose of prazi, spaced 9 days apart? If not, that is the direction I would go at this point.

Jay

 

[ziggyjane07]

No not the 9 days apart - I’ll go back and do it again. Thanks again

 

[LeftyReefer]

The only luck I had with wrasses and cupramine, was BAD luck. I know I won't use it on any wrasse, ever again. I have had much better luck since switching over to copper power.

if its flashing, its likely ICH or flukes.

I've had no issues treating with both Prazipro and Copper power. I do the treatments simultaneously and have never had and issue. Saying that, I have not use Prazi and cupramine at the same time, so not sure if that is OK or not.

If it was me, I'd treat that wrasse for 30 days in copper power, along with 2 or 3 rounds of Prazipro.

 

[ziggyjane07]

Yeh wow! Thanks for heads up!!
I do read a lot about this copper power stuff! The thing is I’m in Australia and there is so much that’s not available over here
Wasn’t easy to even get prazipro either .. Burt nearly $200 Au later for a small bottle, I’m glad it lasts

but I’ve started another prazi treatment and will have the 9 day and go again..
I’m just not sure what to do about the copper situation though.. that’s why I ran much lower to try and acclimate him to it but wasn’t a good sign..

I don’t do both together cos Cupramine shouldn’t be used with anything else.
Unless you know if someone whose tried, and tested successfully?
Thanks LeftyReefer

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeh wow! Thanks for heads up!!
I do read a lot about this copper power stuff! The thing is I’m in Australia and there is so much that’s not available over here
Wasn’t easy to even get prazipro either .. Burt nearly $200 Au later for a small bottle, I’m glad it lasts

but I’ve started another prazi treatment and will have the 9 day and go again..
I’m just not sure what to do about the copper situation though.. that’s why I ran much lower to try and acclimate him to it but wasn’t a good sign..

I don’t do both together cos Cupramine shouldn’t be used with anything else.
Unless you know if someone whose tried, and tested successfully?
Thanks LeftyReefer

Coppersafe works as well or even a bit better than copper power, in case that is more available to you.
Jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

Coppersafe works as well or even a bit better than copper power, in case that is more available to you.
Jay

Can you elaborate on that? I was under the assumption that both copper power and coppersafe were the same thing. chelated copper sulfate.

Actually, when I was trying to determine which to use for the first time, i went with copper power because humblefish says coppersafe when used as directed, usually results in an under-dose and often proves not as effective as copper power.

Both products are chelated copper sulfate. so both should have the same therapeutic range. 1.5 -2.0 ppm, which is often not enough and 2.5ppm is often recommended now.

Copper Power bottle says to dose 1 oz per 20 gallons, which if followed, gets you to 2.5 ppm chelated copper. An effective dose, if not a bit higher than necessary.

If you dose per the Coppersafe bottle, it says dose at 5ml per 4 gallons. The problem is that if you do this, this will only get your a bit over 1 ppm copper. Not high enough to be therapeutic. of course, the answer would be to just dose more, but if you just go by the directions, I don't see how coppersafe would be more effective.

Are they not the same thing? And if dosed to the same level, should be equally effective.

 

[ziggyjane07]

Coppersafe works as well or even a bit better than copper power, in case that is more available to you.
Jay

Thanks Jay, had a look and doesn't seem to be which is a bummer so will have to keep running the cupramine.
It seems near impossible to get our hands on a lot of stuff in Oz that everyone seems to talk about and it seems just so accessible everywhere else

 

[ziggyjane07]

Any pics of fish under white lighting ?
how was fish acclimated ?
What test kits are you using?

 

[ziggyjane07]

Hi there! got a couple of pics under white lights as best I could of the wrasse today.
Also throwing in close up pic of tang and the bumps that showed up today to get thoughts. Not the greatest photos - sorry
You can probably tell this is my first time ever QT’ing and don't know a great deal on diagnoses and treatments Etc so I can say I am extremely appreciative of all the assistance i’ve received!
Thanks heaps vetteguy53081

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi there! got a couple of pics under white lights as best I could of the wrasse today.
Also throwing in close up pic of tang and the bumps that showed up today to get thoughts. Not the greatest photos - sorry
You can probably tell this is my first time ever QT’ing and don't know a great deal on diagnoses and treatments Etc so I can say I am extremely appreciative of all the assistance i’ve received!
Thanks heaps vetteguy53081

Tang showing ich.
Do treatment in a quarantine setting using coppersafe at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 monitored by a reliable copper test kit at 80.5 degrees for a full 30 days
Leave display fishless for 6-8 weeks at 81 degrees

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can you elaborate on that? I was under the assumption that both copper power and coppersafe were the same thing. chelated copper sulfate.

Actually, when I was trying to determine which to use for the first time, i went with copper power because humblefish says coppersafe when used as directed, usually results in an under-dose and often proves not as effective as copper power.

Both products are chelated copper sulfate. so both should have the same therapeutic range. 1.5 -2.0 ppm, which is often not enough and 2.5ppm is often recommended now.

Copper Power bottle says to dose 1 oz per 20 gallons, which if followed, gets you to 2.5 ppm chelated copper. An effective dose, if not a bit higher than necessary.

If you dose per the Coppersafe bottle, it says dose at 5ml per 4 gallons. The problem is that if you do this, this will only get your a bit over 1 ppm copper. Not high enough to be therapeutic. of course, the answer would be to just dose more, but if you just go by the directions, I don't see how coppersafe would be more effective.

Are they not the same thing? And if dosed to the same level, should be equally effective.

While I cannot locate the actual patents, it seems that Copper Power and Coppersafe are essentially the same formulation. However, Copper Power tests out at 2.10 ppm at a full dose while Coppersafe is 2.54 ppm. That means that copper power is just slightly lower in copper concentration. I've read that some people boost copper power to 2.5 to counteract that. In both of these products, I have had difficulty in stopping severe protozoan infections fast enough - there is a trade off between safety and efficacy.....

Jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

While I cannot locate the actual patents, it seems that Copper Power and Coppersafe are essentially the same formulation. However, Copper Power tests out at 2.10 ppm at a full dose while Coppersafe is 2.54 ppm. That means that copper power is just slightly lower in copper concentration. I've read that some people boost copper power to 2.5 to counteract that. In both of these products, I have had difficulty in stopping severe protozoan infections fast enough - there is a trade off between safety and efficacy.....

Jay

I'm not following... Are you sure you don't have your (2) products reversed here?

Copper Power tells you to dose it at 1 oz per 20 gallons. 1 oz is 30 ml. So a 20 Gallon tank would get 30 ML of Copper Power when dosed as directed. Which should be close to or even slightly above 2.5ppm.

Coppersafe tells you to dose it at 5ml per 4 gallons. 5ml is 5 ml. So a 20 Gallon tank would get 25 ML of Coppersafe. (20/4=5 so 5 x 5ml = 25ml.)

30ml is > than 25 ml

So Copper Power would result in a higher level of copper when dosed per directions. Not the other way around.

Whenever I dose Copper Power at 1 oz per 20 gallons, I always get 2.5 ppm, or even a bit higher. Never lower. I've never gotten 2.1 dosing it per the directions.

Coppersafe is the one that results in lower copper levels when used per directions.

Regardless, both products are the same and when dosed the same, should yield similar results. Not sure why the two manufacturers differ on their dosage recommendations. Shouldn't matter which you use as long as you dose them effectively.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm not following... Are you sure you don't have your (2) products reversed here?

Copper Power tells you to dose it at 1 oz per 20 gallons. 1 oz is 30 ml. So a 20 Gallon tank would get 30 ML of Copper Power when dosed as directed. Which should be close to or even slightly above 2.5ppm.

Coppersafe tells you to dose it at 5ml per 4 gallons. 5ml is 5 ml. So a 20 Gallon tank would get 25 ML of Coppersafe. (20/4=5 so 5 x 5ml = 25ml.)

30ml is > than 25 ml

So Copper Power would result in a higher level of copper when dosed per directions. Not the other way around.

Whenever I dose Copper Power at 1 oz per 20 gallons, I always get 2.5 ppm, or even a bit higher. Never lower. I've never gotten 2.1 dosing it per the directions.

Coppersafe is the one that results in lower copper levels when used per directions.

Regardless, both products are the same and when dosed the same, should yield similar results. Not sure why the two manufacturers differ on their dosage recommendations. Shouldn't matter which you use as long as you dose them effectively.

The amount of solution used has no direct bearing on the actual dose - it all depends on how concentrated the solution is in the bottle. I'm saying it seems that they use the same formulation, but not the same concentration. An example would be: 1 cup of seawater at a specific gravity of 1.025 has more salt dissolved in it than 2 cups of water with a specific gravity of 1.010. So Coppersafe has more copper in it per ounce of product than does copper power.

Jay