White Tips on SPS Frags Every Morning for Past 15 Days

[ReefBeta]

I'm not sure coral dying at night can directly link to light problem. Last time when I got some RTN, it's was after dosing some vodka to start carbon dosing. Several frags have their tips burnt away "overnight". It could simply be corals grow cycle thing. (Like if they discharge bad stuff at night, then dead tissue will be part of it?) I have no idea how coral metabolism cycle work though. Didn't see much research on it.

 

[jp_75]

I overdosed Chemiclean recently and lost bunch of acros. Maybe was coincidence... I don’t know!
Well, hobby is pretty challenging. One small mistake and going downhill.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I have way more (proportionally) corals and fish in my 50g sps DT and don’t have any issues. The only time I see or have seen this type of tissue recession has been from over filtration with carbon dosing or bacteria media, regardless of what the residual no3/po4 test results are. I think you have way too much going on. I would do as close to a 100% water change as possible and just stick to skimmer and future water changes. My system is basically kalk, skimmer, chaeto and water changes. That’s it.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Interesting read.. lots of suggestions and opinions. In my years of sps and more.. My tank always had issues when I did water changes.. stirred up the gravel was my concern.. I would always think I was stirring up some nasties into the water that effected everything. Other note .. for years my Hana showed zero and yet I always knew I had high phosphates since algae was growing in the tank... just my 2 cents worth,.. happy holidays all

My concern about water changes is that I have done so many of them over the past 8 months or so because of the tin issue. I'm concerned that too many water changes can strip the water of bacteria beneficial to the corals. And the "stress" associated with water changes is probably a secondary and contributing factor.

 

[Rmckoy]

Hi, I am sorry to derail this thread. Could you please point me to a recipe for your carbon dosing, vinegar, sugar, and iron. Thank you.

Iron ?

I think carbon dosing is the main issue here .
By dosing any carbon it is in fact colonizing more bacteria which in turn are meant to suspend nitrates and phosphates to be manually exported .
why carbon dose to remove nutrients just to dose nutrients and add them ?
Rule #1 never dose anything there is no testable need for

 

[Dr. Jim]

I have way more (proportionally) corals and fish in my 50g sps DT and don’t have any issues. The only time I see or have seen this type of tissue recession has been from over filtration with organic carbon/bacteria media, regardless of what the residual no3/po4 test results are. I think you have way too much going on. I would do as close to a 100% water change as possible and just stick to skimmer and future water changes. My system is basically kalk, skimmer, chaeto and water changes. That’s it.

Thank you for agreeing that I am not "overstocked".....(if I am reading you correctly!)
May I ask what you mean exactly when you say " I think you have way too much going on."? If it has to do with Elements dosing, I can assure you all that even though I'm using a lot of brands and products, I'm using "micro-sized" dosages and have never exceeded the recommended levels on ICP tests. And, I have been using my "method" successfully for many years. But, I have cut back recently and whenever I do large water-changes.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

My concern about water changes is that I have done so many of them over the past 8 months or so because of the tin issue. I'm concerned that too many water changes can strip the water of bacteria beneficial to the corals. And the "stress" associated with water changes is probably a secondary and contributing factor.

Well I can tell you from first hand experience that every frag I purchased in 2017 succumbed to the exact same tissue recession/death. I tried nopox and gfo first and then switched to a modified zeo method. The zeo start and zeolites seemed to kill acro frags faster than anything. Your beneficial denitrifying bacteria is not in your water column, so I wouldn’t worry doing another large water change.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Thank you for agreeing that I am not "overstocked".....(if I am reading you correctly!)
May I ask what you mean exactly when you say " I think you have way too much going on."? If it has to do with Elements dosing, I can assure you all that even though I'm using a lot of brands and products, I'm using "micro-sized" dosages and have never exceeded the recommended levels on ICP tests. And, I have been using my "method" successfully for many years. But, I have cut back recently and whenever I do large water-changes.

Have you been performing this method in this small a system before?

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Thank you for agreeing that I am not "overstocked".....(if I am reading you correctly!)
May I ask what you mean exactly when you say " I think you have way too much going on."? If it has to do with Elements dosing, I can assure you all that even though I'm using a lot of brands and products, I'm using "micro-sized" dosages and have never exceeded the recommended levels on ICP tests. And, I have been using my "method" successfully for many years. But, I have cut back recently and whenever I do large water-changes.

Yes
I don’t think you’re over stocked. I always crack up when I see the tang shame police. They fail to notice that these animals are usually healthy fat and happy. Why aren’t they shaming petco or lfs employees for selling specimens without proper vetting. I know a couple “experts” on this forum that put new tangs in their huge tanks that get beat up and killed by the other fish within a week. So how about a little perspective ppl. I’m not saying we should have nurse sharks in our 40 breeders , but come on. Im more concerned about the coral animals the OP is indirectly killing with carbon doing than I am the healthy looking tang.

Here’s my 50g cube btw
I have over a 100 acros in there and 15 or so fish and 50 or so hermit crabs and shrimp

 

[chicago]

I agree. I would not worry about the bacteria with water changes. They do not reside in the water colum. I would ask.. is the new make up water matched to your current tank water specs before adding. Meaning the alk of tank is the same as the new water alk calcium mag ect ? The best run of sps tank I ever had was when I had a phlenum. MH LIGHTS did not do water changes and hand added cups of alk to my tank. No additives no add on bacteria,, no carbon dosing. Just adding alk and calcium and mag once in awhile. Yes this was back a number of years.

 

[chicago]

Other thing I noticed years back was. When doing water changes ..if the tank water was kinda dirty and depending on size of what we change ....the water clarity was taking a leap to being more clear right after the water change. the sps higher up would kinda of not like that quick change. In other words the water change improved water clarity and with that an increase in par occurred. As we know sps do not like quick changes. Again just some 2 cent observations.

 

[SaltyT]

I must say you have dealt with a tough crowd very well! Staying friendly and polite is what makes this forum so great!

I believe I saw on another thread that you got your live rock from Live Rock N Reef. All of my live rock over the last 9 years has come from them, the bubble algae is a minor nuisance in comparison to all the biodiversity on the rock. I have found that the BA just runs its course as the tank matures and other inhabitants outcompete it or something eats it.

I noticed in your OP you mentioned that things started going downhill approximately a month ago and that around the same time frame you added some macro algae that you found on the beach. Perhaps you introduced a harmful bacteria into your system? Maybe the heavy metal contamination has allowed a pathogen to take hold of your SPS. Just a thought. Merry Christmas!

 

[jp_75]

This is how my sps look like after overdosing Chemiclean. I’m pretty sure it’s goner!

 

[Dr. Jim]

@zsxking, @Chaswood79, @Rmckoy, @chicago and others.....thank you for your "Christmas day posts." ...and kudos to everyone who made sacrifices to be safe this holiday! Better days are ahead of us!

I will try to respond to everyone in one post, especially since there were some overlapping comments. But first, a special "shout out" to @SaltyT for your "kind words"!

Carbon Dosing: This is something I have been "on the fence" about. I started using very low doses for two reasons: to lower nitrates and to increase the population of bacteria in the water column that I believe may be getting "washed out" or diluted from all the water changes. (I mentioned in my first post that one of my concerns is in regard to "washing out bacteria" because I went thru a lot of salt for a 40 gal system in just 11 months.....over 1000 gal worth). I was not referring to the benthic nitrogen-assimilating bacteria attached to substrate.....I know that is not being removed, but rather to "pelagic" bacteria/phytobacteria in the water column that the corals may assimilate. Anyway, I believe, in hind site, that the dosages were probably too low to have any effect on the nitrates, but there is no way to know what kind of effect they had on the bacteria in the water column. At any rate, I have stopped the carbon dosing. Interestingly, some people (like @jda) make a good point that carbon dosing can increase bacteria populations to the point that they may compete for ammonia thereby indirectly harming corals. (I believe in my case, I didn't have to worry about "too much" bacteria because of all the water changes).

@SaltyT....regarding your concern about the algae I picked up from the beach for my refugium.... what are you trying to say about my NJ beaches!!?? (kidding ) But actually, this crossed my mind a little, but the problem started before this and the ulva is growing pretty well, while I could never get chaeto to grow, so I don't think NJ algae is too terribly bad!).

My latest thought....(although it is probably a long-shot):
It has been curious that I haven't had to change my DI resins since I set everything up 11 months ago. (About 1" of the anion resin is just starting to show a color change). I have mixed up at least 1200 gal of salt and can only estimate the amount of water for evaporation and that used for all my "tin soak-tests" but my best guess is AT LEAST 1500 total gallons. The TDS coming out of the RO is 3. In a very old thread, @Randy Holmes-Farley stated that one company suggested that the formula: 6800 divided by the TDS will give an estimate of how many gallons can be filtered adequately. If this is correct, then I am probably "OK" but it seems like 11 months is a long time for me. But, I am in a relatively new house with a small tank so haven't had much experience with an RO/DI here. In my last home (of 29 years) I use to change resins almost every other month (but I use to have a lot of tanks). But on the other hand, BRS resin never seemed to last as long as Spectrapure's and I'm using BRS now.

This is an interesting statement from Spectrapure showing that TDS meters may not be as accurate as some may think. (What I'm not sure of is how "bad" is 0.25 megohms?The reference can be found here:
Resin-Comparison_text.pdf (shopify.com)
"Water is considered to be ultrapure when the resistivity is 18.2 megohms. This is represented by the vertical axis on the above chart. The horizontal axis represents the total number of gallons processed. Standard inline TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meters will typically read 0 ppm until they reach approximately .25 megohms, at which time they will read 1 ppm. They will not indicate the efficiency of the removal capacity of the DI resins up to that point."

I have been using 6 DI canisters (BRS: 2 Cation, 2 Anion, 2 Mixed). Yesterday, I temporarily when back to just 3 with brand new resins. With this "new" water, I performed a 60% water change today. I doubt the resins were the problem, but this is one step that certainly can't hurt (i.e. changing resins). I know I've been talking about my concern about so many water changes, but if the resins have anything to do with the problem, I figure one more big change won't hurt, and, I am still putting a lot of weight on the "tin problem."

Two other things I was holding back on saying until now: Although I have had problems with the SPS frags ever since they were introduced (5-8 mo ago) presumably because of the tin, I started to see some improvement once I thought I was getting the tin under control. Then there was a second, more serious, wave that seemed to have started about 6 weeks ago, culminating with the present "white tip scenario" beginning about 3 weeks ago. This "second wave" started when I switched from Triton CORE 7 to T.M. Balling and I got a bad batch of Part B (Alkalinity). T.M. admitted that the batch was contaminated (with one of their other products) but claimed that it shouldn't cause a problem. However, there was an unusual precipitant in the solution, the alkalinity dropped 1.5 dKH quickly and the next morning 3 frags were dead. I quickly corrected that issue but days later I noticed black residue in my salt mixing tank. I was using T.M.Pro salt. I was told this is probably a harmless iron precipitate. I'm not placing much "blame" on these two events but they surely didn't help matters. I'm switching back to ESV salt (on order) that I have used for many years in the past. This is part of me "going back to the basics" or "back to what I am comfortable with."

One promising sign: Although I am continuing to see "white tips" every day, I've notice 3 frags that I had previously "chopped" that have shown a thin layer of "skin" growing over the white skeleton (cut surface). This is giving me a little hope that I will not lose everything. Remember, all these frags were small to tiny to begin with and when I say "a white tip" I am sometimes talking about half the frag that I have to cut off. It seems like in over half of the ones I have cut there has been no further progression of tissue recession (which of course is another good sign). In about 10 (of the original 45), they went on to die.

Thanks again for those of you still hanging around for my "problem!"

 

[Rickyrooz]

Good lord! That tank is wayyyy overstocked in fish AND corals. Algae everywhere, bubble algae rampant.... reduce your bio load and start cleaning.

Oh gosh, don’t look at my thread if you think Jim’s tank is overstocked with fish and corals

 

[Dr. Jim]

I'M PRETTY SURE I FOUND THE CAUSE OF MY "WHITE TIPS" (FRAGS DYING)!

I woke up earlier than usual this morning and looked at my tank before the lights came on. To my amazement, there was a Bearded Fireworm coiled around my ARC Fireworks frag! When I pulled him off, his mouth was rather firmly attached to the tip of the frag. (see photo below of affected coral). I skipped the photo of the worm because it was dark plus I didn't want him to get away. But here is a thread I posted recently with another Fireworm that I found. At the time, I wasn't sure how "dangerous" they are....but now I know!:
BEARDED FIREWORM | REEF2REEF Saltwater and Reef Aquarium Forum

In my first post in this thread, I wrote, ".... every morning I wake up to find a white tip that I have to snip, usually on one frag each day". This went on for about a month.....just one dead per day and it always happened during the night. A very strange and unusual pattern! So, in retrospect, this all makes sense! The worm only comes out at night, and it probably sat on and ate just one coral each night! Amazing!

I am SO happy I found this....but I'm SO mad, too! ....But more happy than mad.

Also what is interesting:
To recap, this 34 gal SPS Q-tank was set up 13 months ago. Initially I had problems with tin (and posted about this). The tin problem was detected around "month 4" and pretty much remedied 6 months later (3 months ago). But then a "second wave" of problems started, very different and more serious than what I was seeing with the tin. Many people suggested this new problem was because of a "young tank" but that never made sense to me. I was having less problems early on with the tin than 8-9 months later; and, I have set up plenty of SPS tanks with no problems after "month 4." So.....the Bearded Fireworm certainly explains all of this!

The Fireworms came in on some KP rock I added in "month 6". What is scary is that this one went undetected all this time! That little bugger knew my sleep schedule but I fooled him this morning!
And the first one (that I wrote about in the link above) wasn't found until "month 9." So 2 of them arrived in 25lbs of KP rock. I just got another 50lbs of KP rock a month ago for my new I.M. Ext 100 that I am waiting for. On the first day I spotted a big Fireworm but couldn't catch him and haven't seen him since. (The tin problem and these worms caused me to buy a new tank, thinking that my present one is jinxed (before I knew about the Fireworms)! Oh well, one can never have too many tanks!)

This ARC fireworks is my biggest frag. (Sorry for the poor photo; white tip is on the left of largest branch, where the worm's mouth was attached). Most of my remaining 25 (of 70) frags are more like the chopped off BC Bleeding Tree on the far left or the Bill Murray on the far right. But this will be interesting if I see my tank full of "fragged frags" all start to come back....as I strongly suspect will happen!

 

[Rickyrooz]

Jim, have you looked into Philaster? This seems to be going around lately and affecting SPS corals. Telegraham (Graham) is documenting his journey and had someone look at his corals under a microscope.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Jim, have you looked into Philaster? This seems to be going around lately and affecting SPS corals. Telegraham (Graham) is documenting his journey and had someone look at his corals under a microscope.

Hi Ricky,

Thanks for mentioning that. I will look into it. I wonder if anyone is having any success with the "Prime Coral Prevent RTN" medicine.

But in my case, I really think it is was the Bearded Fireworms. It is hard to explain the almost "clockwork" repetitive nature of one coral dying each night for about a month, with white tips appearing in the morning, other than these worms being the culprits. I have examined many of these frags under a microscope but never saw any protozoa.....but I will keep looking if the problem continues.

If anyone knows of any meds that have worked for philaster, (including the "Prime Coral Prevent RTN"), I would be interested to hear about it

Thanks for helping!

 

[old salt reefer]

I suspect your po4 and no3 levels are higher than you may think given the amt of algae growth. You've been changing water excessively, yet your nitrates have been rising over the months which seems strange.

Not with that detritus trap, I mean gravel.

 

[sam.veilleux30]

Holy crap!
Just went throught the 7 pages of tips you got...
Good catch for the worm, happy to know how it turn out.
Now i'm waiting for the build thread of your next tank once you move.
Happy reefing!