White Tips on SPS Frags Every Morning for Past 15 Days

[homer1475]

Let it ride, do weekly water changes, keep up on major elements. It really is that simple.

ICP is great when there is an issue, but it also leads you down a rabbit hole I can clearly see your following with all the little bottles of this element, and that element. 99% of those are replaced with weekly water changes.


Let it stable out. The best my tank has done, and the best my corals have looked is when I stopped playing mad scientist, and went back to the basics.

 

[homer1475]

FWIW, even in the second pics, your rocks are furry. I don't see any dino's, maybe some cyano here and there, but definitely some algae there which IMO is not a bad thing.

 

[schuby]

This is shot of my serpent star on one side of my tank. Phosphate is 0.3ppm and Nitrate is 30-35ppm. I never vacuum my sand. Water changes are done using a DOS.

I've had my phosphate as high as 1.0ppm due to large chaeto die-off. Didn't lose any SPS. When I tried to starve out algae and phosphate went to near-zero, I lost SPS. I fear ultra low nutrients far more than high nutrients.

Also, coralline covers everything that lights hit. A new frag's excess glue is covered in a few weeks. I don't see this behavior in your tank.

 

[ScottB]

Well I made it all the way through the thread today Doc. You certainly are experienced and shockingly tolerant

Since no one else brought this up, I will. I leave my white tips alone until algae attaches. That is how I know it is dead. My skeleton grows faster than my zoox population when everything has been happy for a bit. It depends on the coral of course, but I generally love seeing a bunch of white tips. How do you confirm that your white tips are not just growth tips?

So you feel like the downhill slide began around the same time you added sand, IIRC. Aragonite sand binds PO4 rapidly. Almost as fast as GFO. I am glad you are regularly testing PO4. SPS are not efficient consumers of PO4, so some steady availability is essential. Once your sand is PO4 saturated (versus actively binding) you have plenty of fish feeding that should allow you to stop dosing.

As to what I see on the rocks (a little fur), well it just looks like an 11 month old biome that had a few maturity setbacks (experiments) along the way. Lets not forget that most experiments fail, but that is how we learn.

As to dosing Trace, I will leave you to it. I run a CaRx so I don't bother; my Triton comes back with solid greens.

A couple of white tip pics for you (whiter in person) along with a celebrity photo.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I've had my phosphate as high as 1.0ppm due to large chaeto die-off. Didn't lose any SPS. When I tried to starve out algae and phosphate went to near-zero, I lost SPS. I fear ultra low nutrients far more than high nutrients.

Also, coralline covers everything that lights hit. A new frag's excess glue is covered in a few weeks. I don't see this behavior in your tank.

RE: Phosphates....that's exactly what I'm concerned about.
Coralline grows like crazy in my tank. Look at the photo of the wavemaker. That was put in the tank only 6 weeks ago and it is covered with coralline. A lot of the white glue is new; I'm constantly gluing the plugs because I remove them frequently to trim the dead tips
Thanks for your input!

 

[LegendaryCG]

OK....here we go with more photos but first I will just mention that last night I cut the phosphate dosing in half. This morning PO4 were 0.043 which I am happy about.
Nitrates are about 15 after 10% water change. Large frag of ARC Fireworks developed 3 white tips that I snipped.

The first 3 photos I took before touching (scraping) the tank and before halide came on. I want to show that the photo of the glass in the first post is not "true". That photo was with halide and shot thru front glass toward R side.

The first pic is shot thru the tank from the left side to the right side to give a more realistic idea of the amount of algae. To me, this is "nothing" considering I haven't scraped the glass in over 4-5 wks. (Many Kole tang lip marks).

Oops....I should have hidden all my trace elements bottles!

Second picture is shot from R side to L side so you are seeing the cumulative algae on both panes. The near side is the glass shot in the first post of this thread.

This next pic just shows the sand. @Cell you are right, it is not pure white like I said so I stand corrected. I do think some of this was algae I scraped off the front panel yesterday when I took the first-posted photos in this thread.....but even if I am wrong, don't you think that is an acceptable amount of "non-harmful" algae to grow on the sand after 3 months since I added the sand?

After taking the above 3 photos, I scraped all three glass panels and siphoned the top layer of sand. I attempted to look at the algae under my operating scope, but as I suspected, this scope didn't go to a high enough power. But, the whole time I was scraping I kept thinking "This is NOT cyano/dino". I'm not saying I can't be wrong....just saying what I was thinking!
The next set of photos were taken to show the rock. IMO there is NO algae on them! (not counting the bubble algae).

NOTES:
a) Some shots have sand particles sprinkled on them from the goby. They are NOT air bubbles.
b) The reddish brown spots are coralline algae. (I have 3 different color shades of them)

Again, those red-brown patches are coralline.

I guess maybe it was the lightning, it looks a lot better in those pictures. Well good luck and I'll be interested in if you nail down what the issue is.

 

[homer1475]

I know you said you've been doing this a while,but are you sure the white tips aren't just growth as @Scott b mentioned?

My green slimer will often grow an inch or so of white skeleton before it actually colors up.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Well I made it all the way through the thread today Doc. You certainly are experienced and shockingly tolerant

Since no one else brought this up, I will. I leave my white tips alone until algae attaches. That is how I know it is dead. My skeleton grows faster than my zoox population when everything has been happy for a bit. It depends on the coral of course, but I generally love seeing a bunch of white tips. How do you confirm that your white tips are not just growth tips?

So you feel like the downhill slide began around the same time you added sand, IIRC. Aragonite sand binds PO4 rapidly. Almost as fast as GFO. I am glad you are regularly testing PO4. SPS are not efficient consumers of PO4, so some steady availability is essential. Once your sand is PO4 saturated (versus actively binding) you have plenty of fish feeding that should allow you to stop dosing.

As to what I see on the rocks (a little fur), well it just looks like an 11 month old biome that had a few maturity setbacks (experiments) along the way. Lets not forget that most experiments fail, but that is how we learn.

As to dosing Trace, I will leave you to it. I run a CaRx so I don't bother; my Triton comes back with solid greens.

A couple of white tip pics for you (whiter in person) along with a celebrity photo.

Congratulations for making it thru the thread! (...and to anyone else that follows!)
I appreciate all the comments!

I know what you are saying about the white tips possibly being growth. That is definitely not the case here. Every day, large stretches of branches are turning white, not just the growth tip.... and frags are dying.

I know about the sand (and rock) absorbing PO4 but my bigger concern with the sand is why are my nitrates suddenly going up? This coincided with adding the sand. Very possibly has nothing to do with the sand though. (I know it will take a long time for the sand to develop it's nitrate-reducing function).

Yeah...the fur doesn't bother me or anything. Remember, I grew up in the days before internet and in the early days when aquarist learned by "experimenting." (They still do of course). My "scientist nature" keeps me always trying out new things. Usually I learn something, and usually without much of an expense.....but not always, of course.

I always ran a CaRx, but not on this little tank. On my future build I will definitely go back to one. (But even with the reactor, I still always used kalk, 3-part and trace elements....just a reduction in the amount). Like I mentioned before, I like to use a "blend" of different things to achieve a goal, rather than relying on just one method (or product).

 

[Dr. Jim]

I know you said you've been doing this a while,but are you sure the white tips aren't just growth as @Scott b mentioned?

My green slimer will often grow an inch or so of white skeleton before it actually colors up.

(I just answered this above)....but YES, I'm sure. I have no doubt about being able to tell the difference. I would be having a heck of a successful growth explosion if all my white tips were suddenly new growth! I wish!!

But thanks for suggesting this! The more ideas the merrier!

 

[ReefBeta]

Thanks zsxking. I agree with all of that. Now that I think I have the tin issue under control it will be easier to lay off of "changes."

And thanks for agreeing with me about the cyano/dino! I thought I was going blind not being able to see what everyone else has been "seeing"! (But in support of those people, I agree my original photos may have been misleading, so I apologize for that).

I will taper off the PO4 dosing gradually but quickly....but honestly, if it goes to zero, that will worry me. I guess I will see how the frags react if or when that happens.

Thanks for helping!

Glad to help.

I'm a bit conflict on PO4. The worry of it to zero out is having dino outbreak. If your tank got it in current condition it will causing some serious damage, maybe wipe out the rest of acros. Continue dosing is running into the risk of sudden jump for unexpected reasons. Since you have slow dosing setup, I might just kept it going. But test often, at least twice a week or more, to not letting it run away too far. It's a judgement call for you.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I guess maybe it was the lightning, it looks a lot better in those pictures. Well good luck and I'll be interested in if you nail down what the issue is.

Thank you! I'll post again when or if I figure this out.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Glad to help.

I'm a bit conflict on PO4. The worry of it to zero out is having dino outbreak. If your tank got it in current condition it will causing some serious damage, maybe wipe out the rest of acros. Continue dosing is running into the risk of sudden jump for unexpected reasons. Since you have slow dosing setup, I might just kept it going. But test often, at least twice a week or more, to not letting it run away too far. It's a judgement call for you.

Great points and advice. Thank you. Mainly because of my problems (tin) from day 1,
I have been testing Alk, Phos, and Nitrates at least once a day, and Ca and Mg quite often also and with some tests, with more than one brand of kit.....and charted all the results. (I compared results to frequent ICP tests).
Yes...another "experiment" ....I did extensive testing to compare brands of kits with each other. Hey....I'm semi-retired now and "on leave" because of Covid so I am home with a lot of free time. Great way to spend it....on this hobby, that is!

 

[ScottB]

I know about the sand (and rock) absorbing PO4 but my bigger concern with the sand is why are my nitrates suddenly going up? This coincided with adding the sand. Very possibly has nothing to do with the sand though. (I know it will take a long time for the sand to develop it's nitrate-reducing function).

Perhaps if you were PO4 depleted for a bit, that killed off some of the bacteria or other consumers of nitrate. I know the reverse to be true for my systems. If I am nitrate depleted and add that back, my PO4 takes a hard beating.

And hey, no mention of me finding your business card in my coral stock list files? From a Frag fest some 4-5 years ago. I bought some sticks from you but cannot recall which.

 

[Perry]

From one tinkerer to another, there comes a time to just go with your gut, I did, now I have happy, colorful, and polyped out acros. My link, well.... stopped testing, started feeding like crazy, and bacteria dosing using AF Probiotic Bacteria and NP Pro carbon source (liquid polymer). Also used KZ Flatworm Stop, to aid in tissue production, and KZ Pohls Extra Special for polyp stimulation (no longer dose). I import like crazy, feed frozen twice per day, oyster eggs, roids, and occasional drop or 2 of aminos. Bacteria consume po4, corals consume Bacteria, the rest skimmed off. My rock was dry rock, no sps did squat for a year, then....walla
I have algae, but feel it will eventually be starved out to healthy acros. Again, testing leads me to adjust, instead, I feed like my tank, and use bacteria as my conduit. When I see colorful healthy acros, I tend to look past nutrients and algae, instead, I use my eyes to dictate my course. Tested nutrients are just that, a test... TOO many have crashed their tanks testing nutrients, most depleting po4 too quickly. The signs I see in your tank are eerily similar to struggles I overcame. Best of luck, my goal is simplicity, but if I need a push to get there, then so be it
Cheers

 

[Dr. Jim]

And hey, no mention of me finding your business card in my coral stock list files? From a Frag fest some 4-5 years ago. I bought some sticks from you but cannot recall which.

Ah ha! Finally! Someone who knows me! Please tell people what you thought about my corals so they stop thinking that I don't know what I'm doing! Just kidding!

Which show? Reefapalooza? I'd be more likely to recognize you if you've been to my pet shop.....but nice to "hear" from you! I wish you still had some of my corals. I'd love to buy them back (for sentimental reasons)!

I was always easy to find at a Show...... the only guy in the room with a dinosaur halide pendant!

 

[ScottB]

Ah ha! Finally! Someone who knows me! Please tell people what you thought about my corals so they stop thinking that I don't know what I'm doing! Just kidding!

Which show? Reefapalooza? I'd be more likely to recognize you if you've been to my pet shop.....but nice to "hear" from you! I wish you still had some of my corals. I'd love to buy them back (for sentimental reasons)!

I was always easy to find at a Show...... the only guy in the room with a dinosaur halide pendant!

Too long ago to recall with certainty but likely Reefapalooza. Sorry. But I know I bought from you and we talked about Interceptor for white/red/black bugs which are the ONLY pests I've NOT yet dealt with.

I have only ever bought sticks, namely tenuis, torts and millis. From the shows I was not good at archiving information though.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Wow....this is a tough crowd!

He won't be in there for long.....I will be moving after Covid vaccine and setting up a huge SPS system. (This move was suppose to have happened by now but got postponed because of Covid).

Good thing you didn't see the Yellow tang and Kole tang!!

Well there’s your problem.... too much in to little a tank in a younger system = your problems.

Of course it’s your tank so do as wish just don’t expect it to improve without a major overhaul.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Well there’s your problem.... too much in to little a tank in a younger system = your problems.

Of course it’s your tank so do as wish just don’t expect it to improve without a major overhaul.

 

[JCOLE]

I don't know if I missed it but what is your CUC? I don't see any snails, emeralds, etc in the pictures. I just received an order for 24 emeralds and a couple hundred snails to help with my bubble algae and turf algae.

Also, have you tested PAR with the Halides? I might have missed that as well. The Halides could be too strong and causing photoinhibition and stunting the coral growth.

Honestly, I think your rocks look great! Nothing a CUC wouldn't tackle in short time. I wouldn't focus so much on PO4 and NO3 and focus on lighting and stability.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I don't know if I missed it but what is your CUC? I don't see any snails, emeralds, etc in the pictures. I just received an order for 24 emeralds and a couple hundred snails to help with my bubble algae and turf algae.

Also, have you tested PAR with the Halides? I might have missed that as well. The Halides could be too strong and causing photoinhibition and stunting the coral growth.

Honestly, I think your rocks look great! Nothing a CUC wouldn't tackle in short time. I wouldn't focus so much on PO4 and NO3 and focus on lighting and stability.

I have lots of snails (many sifters) and 3 hermits (but I don't like them around young struggling frags). I bought an emerald crab to see what he would do with the bubble algae but on the second day my Royal Gramma disappeared! I was sick over that! The emerald got banished to the refugium along with an urchin (that was scraping the frags).

I have a PAR meter. I don't remember the numbers but they were OK. I use to grow SPS frags under 400 W halides with no problem. This light is only a 250W (and 4 T'5s). 11 hr photoperiod; halide down to 4 hrs (from 5).

Great points! Thanks!