What is Reef Fusion Part 2 (Carbonate one) made from?

Kerbash

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
244
Reaction score
154
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hello,

Does anyone know what is the Reef fusion part 2 made from? Or how its made? It said its meq/L is 4400 thats wayyy more than the sodium carbonate solubility. I did manage to get close by boiling off the excess water, but it precipitated out of the solution slowly.

Did they use the sodium carbonate but just add acids to increase solubility?

Thanks
 

taricha

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
6,970
Reaction score
10,747
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
interesting question. I don't actually know if 4400 meq/L is possible. Here's my best guess (but there might be an error or two in the below).

normality of sodium carbonate is 2, and sodium bicarbonate is 1. So mixing with bicarbonate probably wouldn't help.
Looking up solubility of saturated sodium carbonate, I find 21.5 g/100mL = 215 g/L. at 106 g/mol that gives you 2.02 Molar, and since the normality = 2, that's 4.04 equivalents/L or 4040meq/L. Which is really close to the quoted 4400 meq/L.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
72,100
Reaction score
69,741
Location
Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Seachem rarely says what is in their products, and they make a number of unusual or incorrect claims, so I do not know if what they are saying about the potency is actually true.

That said, there are at least two ways once could attain this potency.

1. Mix sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide
2. Add in other, unmentioned ions, such as potassium and sulfate.

Number 2 is an example of how ions can increase the solubility of other ions. This paper makes a good example of that:


The theory of activity versus concentration is important in industrial, environmental, and biochemistry. The increase in solubility of an electrolyte in a solution of a second electrolyte with no common ions compared with pure water is not an easy concept to grasp because it seems to be counterintuitive. The simple experiment described here illustrates this principle visually and dramatically. Students attempt to dissolve CaSO4•2H2O (gypsum) in pure water and in 0.25 M NaCl. The gypsum dissolves almost completely in the sodium chloride solution, but not in pure water. Students then measure the calcium concentrations in filtered aliquots of both solutions to quantify the solubility difference they observed. Students calculate mean activity coefficients using their measured concentrations and also from the Davies Equation, an extension of Debye–Hückel theory. The basic principle is there are ionic interactions between the solute ions and the solvent ions, which allow for more dissolution because only free ions enter into the expression for the solubility product equilibrium constant. From a simple mathematical point of view, in higher ionic strength solutions, activity coefficients for calcium and sulfate become smaller, and hence the concentrations must be larger to maintain a constant solubility product at equilibrium.
 
OP
OP
Kerbash

Kerbash

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
244
Reaction score
154
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Seachem rarely says what is in their products, and they make a number of unusual or incorrect claims, so I do not know if what they are saying about the potency is actually true.

That said, there are at least two ways once could attain this potency.

1. Mix sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide
2. Add in other, unmentioned ions, such as potassium and sulfate.

Number 2 is an example of how ions can increase the solubility of other ions. This paper makes a good example of that:


The theory of activity versus concentration is important in industrial, environmental, and biochemistry. The increase in solubility of an electrolyte in a solution of a second electrolyte with no common ions compared with pure water is not an easy concept to grasp because it seems to be counterintuitive. The simple experiment described here illustrates this principle visually and dramatically. Students attempt to dissolve CaSO4•2H2O (gypsum) in pure water and in 0.25 M NaCl. The gypsum dissolves almost completely in the sodium chloride solution, but not in pure water. Students then measure the calcium concentrations in filtered aliquots of both solutions to quantify the solubility difference they observed. Students calculate mean activity coefficients using their measured concentrations and also from the Davies Equation, an extension of Debye–Hückel theory. The basic principle is there are ionic interactions between the solute ions and the solvent ions, which allow for more dissolution because only free ions enter into the expression for the solubility product equilibrium constant. From a simple mathematical point of view, in higher ionic strength solutions, activity coefficients for calcium and sulfate become smaller, and hence the concentrations must be larger to maintain a constant solubility product at equilibrium.

Thanks for the reply, I think the first option is very likely right? Because when you add the product, white precipitate form, which points to a high pH? I guess ill give that a try.
 
OP
OP
Kerbash

Kerbash

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
244
Reaction score
154
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
interesting question. I don't actually know if 4400 meq/L is possible. Here's my best guess (but there might be an error or two in the below).

normality of sodium carbonate is 2, and sodium bicarbonate is 1. So mixing with bicarbonate probably wouldn't help.
Looking up solubility of saturated sodium carbonate, I find 21.5 g/100mL = 215 g/L. at 106 g/mol that gives you 2.02 Molar, and since the normality = 2, that's 4.04 equivalents/L or 4040meq/L. Which is really close to the quoted 4400 meq/L.
I actually got it to go around 4400 meq/L by creating a super saturated solution, which was fine for like a week or so, but it eventually formed a huge hunk of crystal at the bottom of the bottle.
 

Reefer Matt

Reef Cave Dweller
View Badges
Joined
May 15, 2021
Messages
6,977
Reaction score
31,412
Location
Michigan
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I tried duplicating their recipe, but could never get the concentration that high without precipitation. My sps tanks have high alk demand, so I just pay for their product. The alk swung too much trying to use another product in my case.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
72,100
Reaction score
69,741
Location
Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thanks for the reply, I think the first option is very likely right? Because when you add the product, white precipitate form, which points to a high pH? I guess ill give that a try.

That happens for carbonate too.
 
OP
OP
Kerbash

Kerbash

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
244
Reaction score
154
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I tried duplicating their recipe, but could never get the concentration that high without precipitation. My sps tanks have high alk demand, so I just pay for their product. The alk swung too much trying to use another product in my case.
Same, im too nervous to try anything else, but at the same time, Im going through a 500 mL bottle every week and a half and its really adding up.

That happens for carbonate too.
Sorry but can u explain why there is no white cloud when I add my NaCO3 solution too, it was around 3500-3700 meq/L? Is there a threshold where carbonate concentration start showing the white precipitant when added to the tank?

Also if you dont mind could you explain how does pH affect the solubility of NaCO3? I was talking to someone else today about your earlier comment "Mix sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide". I was assuming that the NaCO3 solubility dont change but the effective alkalinity of the solution changed due to the raised pH. But they told me I was wrong and that higher pH causes NaCO3 to be more soluble? Because the high pH favors the formation of bicarbonate ions which causes more of the CO3 to dissociate? Is that correct?

Thank u!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
72,100
Reaction score
69,741
Location
Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
What product are you adding?

I show what adding ESV B-ionic (bicarbonate) does here:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Figure 3. The transient cloud of magnesium hydroxide that forms when high pH additives are added. In this case, the alkalinity portion of B-ionic was added to a fairly still portion of one of my reef aquaria.​


1713006785771.jpeg
 

taricha

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
6,970
Reaction score
10,747
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Same, im too nervous to try anything else, but at the same time, Im going through a 500 mL bottle every week and a half and its really adding up.
If this is your concern, then you can do something like this -
Use a DIY sodium carbonate or bicarbonate solution - feel free to make it weaker (say half strength and dose 2x as much). There's no reason it needs to be the same concentration as the seachem product. The added volume is really small from a concentrated alk supplement. It's not like limewater.
 

Reefer Matt

Reef Cave Dweller
View Badges
Joined
May 15, 2021
Messages
6,977
Reaction score
31,412
Location
Michigan
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If this is your concern, then you can do something like this -
Use a DIY sodium carbonate or bicarbonate solution - feel free to make it weaker (say half strength and dose 2x as much). There's no reason it needs to be the same concentration as the seachem product. The added volume is really small from a concentrated alk supplement. It's not like limewater.
I did that for a while myself. I calculated out the max concentration I could make with both sodium carbonate and bicarbonate. I found the cost of doing so to be close to just buying the Seachem product after the price went back down. I also noticed the diy solution would crystalize at the end of the dosing tube, where the Seachem product doesn’t. I wonder if they add some kind of stabilizer to the product or something?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

Reef Chemist
View Badges
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
72,100
Reaction score
69,741
Location
Massachusetts, United States
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I did that for a while myself. I calculated out the max concentration I could make with both sodium carbonate and bicarbonate. I found the cost of doing so to be close to just buying the Seachem product after the price went back down. I also noticed the diy solution would crystalize at the end of the dosing tube, where the Seachem product doesn’t. I wonder if they add some kind of stabilizer to the product or something?

I cannot imagine that the Seachem product is even close in price to using grocery store baking soda.
 

Reefer Matt

Reef Cave Dweller
View Badges
Joined
May 15, 2021
Messages
6,977
Reaction score
31,412
Location
Michigan
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Back
Top