Water Changes and or Dosing Trace Elements

[Reefahholic]

There is no way every single tank out there is consuming elements in a perfect ratio.

Bingo

Ding Ding Ding

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, it’s a mistake to even call the method water changes, since foods may play a larger role in supplementing trace elements than water changes.

In theory, water changes with a salt mix matching NSW can never even hope to maintain NSW levels of consumed trace elements.

 

[jda]

With water changes, you can just do them and not worry about over dosing or testing. Not only does this save money on testing and elements, it also is easier on the mind... mine at least. OES is $45 or MS at $55 - I can do 200 gallon water change for about $30-32, that is 300 gallons of new water.

I have never once believed that I was replenishing everything up to some certain level, but I am replenishing.

I will freely admit that I trust Aquarium Pharm and their IO salt more than I trust an ICP test anyway, nor a supplement made by somebody else that I have no idea of the compound or purity. I also have not ever found use for most elements that people swear about anyway and I only dose iron and the range is so large that you really cannot overdose it if you can do maths.

 

[Anxur]

Weekly water changes replenish trace without the need for dosing. If you go monthly on water changes then you might need trace dosing if you have a full stock if corals. I've done both and measured results with ICP tests. Pretty much the same either way. Few trace are high or low but nothing that will cause problems for the tank. My scores were 93% or better on the test.

So if you do weekly water changes of 20% can you avoid dosing trace elements, iodine, iron, potassium, boron, fluoride etc?

 

[Dan_P]

So if you do weekly water changes of 20% can you avoid dosing trace elements, iodine, iron, potassium, boron, fluoride etc?

There is no way to know for sure if water changes will replace trace elements unless you know how quickly the elements are depleted. Only a 100% water change is a sure thing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So if you do weekly water changes of 20% can you avoid dosing trace elements, iodine, iron, potassium, boron, fluoride etc?

That would depend on what levels you want to keep and the levels in the salt mix, but is not going to maintain the salt mix levels for rapidly depleting ions such as iron.

 

[Lavey29]

So if you do weekly water changes of 20% can you avoid dosing trace elements, iodine, iron, potassium, boron, fluoride etc?

From Tidal Gardens:

In most cases, weekly 10% water changes are more than enough to replenish trace elements. It is possible though that heavily stocked tanks will deplete trace elements faster than sparsely stocked aquariums. In this situation, a trace element supplement could help.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From Tidal Gardens:

In most cases, weekly 10% water changes are more than enough to replenish trace elements. It is possible though that heavily stocked tanks will deplete trace elements faster than sparsely stocked aquariums. In this situation, a trace element supplement could help.

That is an opinion that they provide without evidence, apparently.

IMO, feeding is a bigger source of many elements than are water changes.

 

[Lavey29]

That is an opinion that they provide without evidence, apparently.

IMO, feeding is a bigger source of many elements than are water changes.

I agree but I think the key factor is how stocked your tank is with coral? A large tank with fully developed colonies of coral throughout will obviously need various supplements to sustain the chemistry but a lightly stocked tank with softs and LPS still developing should only need weekly water changes for trace replenishment. Same basic principles for dosing major elements to right?

I dose trace in between water changes which I do once a month now. On water change day I skip the trace dosing that week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree but I think the key factor is how stocked your tank is with coral? A large tank with fully developed colonies of coral throughout will obviously need various supplements to sustain the chemistry but a lightly stocked tank with softs and LPS still developing should only need weekly water changes for trace replenishment. Same basic principles for dosing major elements to right?

I dose trace in between water changes which I do once a month now. On water change day I skip the trace dosing that week.

There is no doubt that one can keep a nice reef tank without adding trace elements. The question is whether that same tank would be better with supplements, and how significant are water changes in that determination.

 

[Christoph]

From Tidal Gardens:

In most cases, weekly 10% water changes are more than enough to replenish trace elements. It is possible though that heavily stocked tanks will deplete trace elements faster than sparsely stocked aquariums. In this situation, a trace element supplement could help.

That is not true in my opinion. The biggest consumers/sinks of many of the true trace elements are:

- precipitation and skimming/sedimentation
- binding to biomolecules and skimming
- adsorption to surfaces
- accumulation by bacterio/phyto-plancton (and skimming)
- use of adsorbers such as GFO
- ...
- coral uptake

Stocking level with coral does not have so much influence on the consumption rate of trace elements, the other factors do play a more substincial role here imo. So even tanks without a single coral will deplete in several traces.

Opposed to the sinks there is the sources, which id like to differentiate into:

a) conscious dosing of traces

b) unconscious dosing of traces:
- feeding
- impurity in used products (adsorbers, chemicals and hardware)
- desorption from surfaces


The relation between sources and sinks will define the level in the tank, its more like a "steady state equilibrium" compared to a static scenario.

all the best, Christoph

 

[Lavey29]

That is not true in my opinion. The biggest consumers/sinks of many of the true trace elements are:

- precipitation and skimming/sedimentation
- binding to biomolecules and skimming
- adsorption to surfaces
- accumulation by bacterio/phyto-plancton (and skimming)
- use of adsorbers such as GFO
- ...
- coral uptake

Stocking level with coral does not have so much influence on the consumption rate of trace elements, the other factors do play a more substincial role here imo. So even tanks without a single coral will deplete in several traces.

Opposed to the sinks there is the sources, which id like to differentiate into:

a) conscious dosing of traces

b) unconscious dosing of traces:
- feeding
- impurity in used products (adsorbers, chemicals and hardware)
- desorption from surfaces


The relation between sources and sinks will define the level in the tank, its more like a "steady state equilibrium" compared to a static scenario.

all the best, Christoph

Good points, yes adding unnatural stuff to the tank can cause varying degrees of fluctuations but when discussing trace, these amounts are so minute and often show up on ICP tests as undetectable, depending on your stocking, weekly water changes are still the simplest and most viable solution to maintaining trace levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is not true in my opinion. The biggest consumers/sinks of many of the true trace elements are:

- precipitation and skimming/sedimentation
- binding to biomolecules and skimming
- adsorption to surfaces
- accumulation by bacterio/phyto-plancton (and skimming)
- use of adsorbers such as GFO
- ...
- coral uptake

Stocking level with coral does not have so much influence on the consumption rate of trace elements, the other factors do play a more substincial role here imo. So even tanks without a single coral will deplete in several traces.

Opposed to the sinks there is the sources, which id like to differentiate into:

a) conscious dosing of traces

b) unconscious dosing of traces:
- feeding
- impurity in used products (adsorbers, chemicals and hardware)
- desorption from surfaces


The relation between sources and sinks will define the level in the tank, its more like a "steady state equilibrium" compared to a static scenario.

all the best, Christoph

I don’t disagree with many of these points, though more data on all of them would be helpful, but assuming it is even mostly true, then if one is going to use a trace element cocktail without icp validation, dosing based on typical tank needs (mL per day) makes more sense then one tied to calcification (say, mL per ppm of calcium dosed per day).

 

[Christoph]

I don’t disagree with many of these points, though more data on all of them would be helpful, but assuming it is even mostly true, then if one is going to use a trace element cocktail without icp validation, dosing based on typical tank needs (mL per day) makes more sense then one tied to calcification (say, mL per ppm of calcium dosed per day).

That is unfortunately data that is not easily obtained, best would be studies with radioisotops of the elements.

We do have obtained some data:

trace elements in feeds:

On the Trail of (Trace)elements in feed | Oceamo

Analysis of (trace) elements in common fish food: krill, mysis, flake food, artemia, lobster eggs, spirulina, pellets. Understand your reef aquarium better

en.oceamo.com

elements and adsorber media (qualitative, not quantitative):

An ICP-MS look onto reactor media Part 2 | Oceamo

What is released into the aquarium water by activated carbon, zeolite and phosphate adsorbers? What trace elements and pollutants are bound?

en.oceamo.com

another short study on adsorber media:

Reactor media under the ICP-OES loupe | Oceamo

Reactor media such as activated carbon, zeolite or phosphate adsorber are often used in reef aquariums. We were interested about what elements and in which quantities these reactor media release them into the water, and whether frequently heardf statements such as "phosphate adsorbers supply...

en.oceamo.com

Needless to say those small experimental series fail to give a complete picture, but are imo helpful data snippets.

Dosing of several elements can be tied in some way to Calcium/KH consumption (prime example is Strontium, which behaves in a very predictable way), many of the ultratrace elements (like all transition metals) we dose based on water volume, not alkalinity consumption.

The ICP-MS measurement is helpful here to eveluate the current "steady state" concentration that is imo a result of husbandry and tank setup (considering sinks and sources above) - if levels are below the recommended concentration range this equilibrium can be shifted upwards by increasing the amount of "conscious dosing".

Still the active dosing of a trace element might be a smaller contribution compared to the amounts we add without knowing about it (uncoscious dosing).

Many "imo"s in there - so nothing that is really proven, but so far my understanding of trace element fluxes in reef tanks.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is unfortunately data that is not easily obtained, best would be studies with radioisotops of the elements.

We do have obtained some data:

trace elements in feeds:

On the Trail of (Trace)elements in feed | Oceamo

Analysis of (trace) elements in common fish food: krill, mysis, flake food, artemia, lobster eggs, spirulina, pellets. Understand your reef aquarium better

en.oceamo.com

elements and adsorber media (qualitative, not quantitative):

An ICP-MS look onto reactor media Part 2 | Oceamo

What is released into the aquarium water by activated carbon, zeolite and phosphate adsorbers? What trace elements and pollutants are bound?

en.oceamo.com

another short study on adsorber media:

Reactor media under the ICP-OES loupe | Oceamo

Reactor media such as activated carbon, zeolite or phosphate adsorber are often used in reef aquariums. We were interested about what elements and in which quantities these reactor media release them into the water, and whether frequently heardf statements such as "phosphate adsorbers supply...

en.oceamo.com

Needless to say those small experimental series fail to give a complete picture, but are imo helpful data snippets.

Dosing of several elements can be tied in some way to Calcium/KH consumption (prime example is Strontium, which behaves in a very predictable way), many of the ultratrace elements (like all transition metals) we dose based on water volume, not alkalinity consumption.

The ICP-MS measurement is helpful here to eveluate the current "steady state" concentration that is imo a result of husbandry and tank setup (considering sinks and sources above) - if levels are below the recommended concentration range this equilibrium can be shifted upwards by increasing the amount of "conscious dosing".

Still the active dosing of a trace element might be a smaller contribution compared to the amounts we add without knowing about it (uncoscious dosing).

Many "imo"s in there - so nothing that is really proven, but so far my understanding of trace element fluxes in reef tanks.

All the best,
Christoph

Thanks Christoph!

I haven’t followed the links yet, but I do agree about strontium consumption being tied to calcification.

On that note, have you seen evidence of corals we keep needing strontium?

 

[Garf]

That is unfortunately data that is not easily obtained, best would be studies with radioisotops of the elements.

We do have obtained some data:

trace elements in feeds:

On the Trail of (Trace)elements in feed | Oceamo

Analysis of (trace) elements in common fish food: krill, mysis, flake food, artemia, lobster eggs, spirulina, pellets. Understand your reef aquarium better

en.oceamo.com

elements and adsorber media (qualitative, not quantitative):

An ICP-MS look onto reactor media Part 2 | Oceamo

What is released into the aquarium water by activated carbon, zeolite and phosphate adsorbers? What trace elements and pollutants are bound?

en.oceamo.com

another short study on adsorber media:

Reactor media under the ICP-OES loupe | Oceamo

Reactor media such as activated carbon, zeolite or phosphate adsorber are often used in reef aquariums. We were interested about what elements and in which quantities these reactor media release them into the water, and whether frequently heardf statements such as "phosphate adsorbers supply...

en.oceamo.com

Needless to say those small experimental series fail to give a complete picture, but are imo helpful data snippets.

Dosing of several elements can be tied in some way to Calcium/KH consumption (prime example is Strontium, which behaves in a very predictable way), many of the ultratrace elements (like all transition metals) we dose based on water volume, not alkalinity consumption.

The ICP-MS measurement is helpful here to eveluate the current "steady state" concentration that is imo a result of husbandry and tank setup (considering sinks and sources above) - if levels are below the recommended concentration range this equilibrium can be shifted upwards by increasing the amount of "conscious dosing".

Still the active dosing of a trace element might be a smaller contribution compared to the amounts we add without knowing about it (uncoscious dosing).

Many "imo"s in there - so nothing that is really proven, but so far my understanding of trace element fluxes in reef tanks.

All the best,
Christoph

Appears some of these tests are 10% media to test water volume, but even so, the effect of GFO is quite remarkable. For those that don't read links, I'll add an interesting pic;

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Appears some of these tests are 10% media to test water volume, but even so, the effect of GFO is quite remarkable. For those that don't read links, I'll add an interesting pic;

That is pretty dramatic, but I agree that it is proof of binding, but not of the degree of effect, so folks should not freak out seeing it.

 

[ramseyd]

The new trend is no water changes with icp testing. I do water changes because I can afford to, and change about 120 gallons a month on 300 gallons of tank volume (5 tanks). I dose 2 part in my sps reef, the rest is taken care of by the water changes. I have no desire to be a chemist, or chase numbers, so it works for me.

Amen !

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no desire to be a chemist

Say it isn’t so!

 

[Reefer Matt]

Say it isn’t so!

Sorry Dr! I gotta pay more attention to which forums my posts are made in, as I try not to add noise to yours. But for the record, I like chemistry, I just don’t want it as a hobby or profession. Though I know reefing is inherently full of it.