Watch me kill SPS...

[Hockeypunk1]

Just spent a good portion of this morning reading through all the posts! You have a beautiful system and I really love the aquascape! Your fish seem very happy as well! I am on board with the dinoflagelates and lack of nutrients/ biodiversity. It's surprising that with the age of your system and the amount of fish you have that you're dealing with this pest as well as the inability to grow acros!
I used to run sumpless systems and never had any issue with dinos, or chryophytes. Once I upgraded to a system where I could have a sump everything went downhill before it suddenly evened out and now everything is seemingly in balance. I battled dinos and all my acros would wither away as though they were starving. Then I went through chryophytes, I could grow acros but the nasty slime covering the rocks made the tank more of an eyesore than anything! The acros grew slow and had a dull color.
I could never keep N or P to save my life so I bought some quality flake food and started feeding 2-3 times per day along with some frozen mysis and LRS reef frenzy. I now have P levels (.01-.1) and my N levels are still usually non existent but I don't worry about that anymore. I also slowed way down on running activated carbon. I will run a tiny amount if my water smells fishy or if the water looks off colored. I pulled the uv off my system as well. Adding more flow will definitely help! We could never add more flow in our home reefs than what nature gives them on the ocean!
Recently I had an explosion of growth and the colors are amazing! I attribute that to adding a calcium reactor to my system. This is the best addition I have made! I believe the calcium reactor media releases nutrients as well as calcium and alkalinity.
Everyone has their own way of being successful and I'm confident you will find yours! Good luck!

 

[Skep18]

your photos arent working, i also noticed you dont have coralline on your rocks for your tank being two years! how come?

I have coralline. The majority is a more green colored, at least it looks like coralline. There's purple on maybe 5-10% of the rock surface but its mostly in the shadows.

As far as why not, that's why I am here! lol. I was hoping you could tell me (assuming that's an issue). Although I have heard from others their tanks have coralline mostly in shaded areas. But again, hence this thread, I'm pretty failed at all of this. I am probably not a credible source of information.

 

[Skep18]

My no3 is 25ppm.

I'm currently @ around 8ppm. I was figuring shooting for between 5-10ppm was OK. Should I be going for more?

 

[Skep18]

You might check Amazon for cell phone microscopes. They plug right into your phone, which makes it easy to take pictures. We bought one for $20. that does 40X and 1000X magnifications. We use an app called CamersFi for the software.

Wow, that would be great! I already have CameraFi for an endoscope I use in my garage stuff. I'm assuming based on your photo and your experiences, it worked well? Might you link it or DM me a link?

 

[Skep18]

Depends on ID but UV eliminated mine quickly.

I've had a Pentair 40W for over a year now. It comes on every day when my T5 lights go out. Unfortunately it seems that hasn't kicked them for me as of yet. That said, based on threads on here, I'm guessing my low nutrients has something to do with that too. And I understand my UV isn't probably big enough but they are BIG and expensive, lol. I have throttled the flow down to the "Protozoa Bacteria Water Flow Rate".

 

[Skep18]

Keep the qt practice going. Youre doing it right!

If we're being honest, I love to see posts like this. I know its a controversial topic, the whole QT thing. I have been waiting for the people who advise against live rock to come in and tell that's the cause. And, it very well may be. But I just can't bring myself to risking the exposure of any of the typical pests or hitchikers to my DT. Now, if I knew then what I know now, I may have bought live rock and let it fallow for like six months art the start of the tank. I'm sure there's benefits to the biodiversity. However, at this point, I am where I am. I would like to continue with my current QT regiment and mindset if possible. If it proves impossible, then I guess I will have some decisions to make. lol.

 

[Skep18]

Just spent a good portion of this morning reading through all the posts! You have a beautiful system and I really love the aquascape! Your fish seem very happy as well! I am on board with the dinoflagelates and lack of nutrients/ biodiversity. It's surprising that with the age of your system and the amount of fish you have that you're dealing with this pest as well as the inability to grow acros!
I used to run sumpless systems and never had any issue with dinos, or chryophytes. Once I upgraded to a system where I could have a sump everything went downhill before it suddenly evened out and now everything is seemingly in balance. I battled dinos and all my acros would wither away as though they were starving. Then I went through chryophytes, I could grow acros but the nasty slime covering the rocks made the tank more of an eyesore than anything! The acros grew slow and had a dull color.
I could never keep N or P to save my life so I bought some quality flake food and started feeding 2-3 times per day along with some frozen mysis and LRS reef frenzy. I now have P levels (.01-.1) and my N levels are still usually non existent but I don't worry about that anymore. I also slowed way down on running activated carbon. I will run a tiny amount if my water smells fishy or if the water looks off colored. I pulled the uv off my system as well. Adding more flow will definitely help! We could never add more flow in our home reefs than what nature gives them on the ocean!
Recently I had an explosion of growth and the colors are amazing! I attribute that to adding a calcium reactor to my system. This is the best addition I have made! I believe the calcium reactor media releases nutrients as well as calcium and alkalinity.
Everyone has their own way of being successful and I'm confident you will find yours! Good luck!

Wow, a lot of very good information in this post. Thank you and thank you for reading through all of this. I know its a lot.

Glad to hear I might not be alone in my struggle, although my density might be keeping me here longer than others, lol.

I'm hearing a lot about nutrients. I have been working to get my system more "established" in nutrients I guess. I am feeding more. I am also continuing to dose NO3 and PO4. I'm guessing some will advise the dosing is bad but to be honest, I am not sure how to get the numbers up other than that. I feel like if I tried to over feed, I would use a 40oz flat pack a day of PE mysis! lol.

I've pulled the carbon offline. I still have to UV as some are saying, for some dinos, UV can be good in working against them when they are in the water column? Also, it really does wonders to keep my water clear. But maybe that is a bad thing? lol, as you can see, I am second guessing nearly everything I do at this point.

I would love to get a calcium reactor but I'm afraid I have no corals that are consumping anything to warrant it (I know you didn't suggest it. I was just mentioning it.)

Thanks again for the feedback. We keep trekking on!

 

[Skep18]

Just a few things off the top of my head from skimming this thread..

1) This is a fairly new thread and you've gotten a lot of suggestions. If you are going to make changes take it SLOW and do things one at a time. Raising your nitrates and phosphates should be taken at a very slow rate otherwise you end up shocking your tank and causing imbalance. Taking a slow approach goes for any change you make to your tank. You won't see drastic improvement in a few days.

2) Do another ICP test and check for any signs of rust. Check all your magnets and equipment. Could possibly even be a screw or something that accidentally fell into your tank. Rust is one of the most missed culprits of a struggling reef.

3) Add more fish. Fish poop is your best friend. The more fish poop the more nutrients for your corals. A lot of people think that feeding the tank heavy is what feeds the corals. Actually, it's feeding your fish so they poop more!

4) Stay consistent in whatever you're doing/changing. If you're going to raise the nutrient levels, don't just do it for a week and then stop if you don't see any changes. You won't see immediate response from your corals. It'll take at least a few weeks before you see improvements.

Thank you for the recommendations. Good stuff here I think. I agree on the fish poop. Idk how many is too many though, lol. I can understand the nutrient balance side of it but at what point is a tank too cluttered?

Also, on the consistency, I couldn't agree more. If its one thing I've noticed its some things I have done in the past seem great until 3 months later and everything is super upset.

I am definitely trying to get my tank on the right track and am trying to be careful in not doing too much too quickly. That said, as I have nearly no coral, I kinda am trying to "chase numbers" as they say not to do, in hopes that if I can get those numbers and keep them there, maybe the uglies will come and go. But hopefully I am not moving too fast. Idk though. Like all of this, the only thing I do know is I am doing this all wrong SOMEWHERE in my system.

Thanks again for the time and feedback.

 

[Skep18]

Hi Skep--I've had a similar issue, where everything looked good on paper and it just made no sense. Ruled everything out 1 by 1, and couldn't find an answer. However my gut told me it was a nutrient and bio-diversity issue... that the "keep your P at .03 and N at 5" is old, bad advice.

I started to really research the redfield ratio, and the importance of carbon (talking C, not the activated stuff) to get your N and P in balance. It's a pretty offball strategy, most people resort to carbon dosing just to get nutrients DOWN. But here's the thing - it works by boosting the availability of P for bacteria to consume. So I actually started to manually dose small amounts of N, P, Dr. Tims probiotic, upped my feeding - and introduced carbon dosing for a short time. The goal was to kick start the heck out of the biosphere.

Carbon dosing is still kind of a mystery in how it works, so what I did is a little mad scientist. But I did a lot of research first, and was sort of desperate. So far, I have seen results - remaining SPS is coming back, and new test frags are looking good.

If your tank has been running for 2+ years, and you can't figure out anything else, find a way to really kickstart the bio and nutrient processes. Whether or not you choose my route. Having corals is more important than never having algae.

Whoa... That's some fivehead stuff right there. lol. I think that's maybe the first I've heard of dosing nutrients AND carbon. That said, what you say doesn't sound completely insane. I'm a little hesitant as not only do I know I don't completely understand confirmed details of this hobby but also, its been my experience with carbon dosing it can really take your nutrients (or at least NO3) out pretty quickly. I think I also noticed its hard to say when the carbon starts and stops working? By that I mean I feel like after some dosing, its almost a delayed reaction and by the time I stop, the dosing just keeps on bringing numbers down.

All that said, if you are seeing success, I will look into this. I'm gonna let the current changes settle in but if I still struggle, despite having good NO3 and PO4, I will circle back to this. Thanks for the info!

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I'm currently @ around 8ppm. I was figuring shooting for between 5-10ppm was OK. Should I be going for more?

I don’t think it matters as long as the corals are getting a bunch of fish poop all day and you’re not over stripping the water of ammonia/ammonium and bacteria. My corals look the same whether my no3 is 2.5 or 25.

 

[Skep18]

Dose 0.1 ppm daily for a week. Test every day at the same time, see what happens and adjust as necessary. It will probably take 4-5 days to start getting a consistent reading. My tank requires .1-.12 daily dosing to maintain about .08-.1 in the water column. I now test phosphate just as much as I test alkalinity, about 3-4 times a week.

If you aren't aware, Hans-Werner's last name is Balling. He is the owner of Tropic-Marin. I took his advice in the other thread I linked before and in the last 3-4 months the difference in my tank and corals is absolutely astounding. I feel like you are exactly where I was six months ago.

Wow, I did not know that. Thats a great resource on here!

As of yesterday, I have emptied the ALK and CAL out of my DDR and filled it with NO3 and PO4 dosing liquid. I had my ALK and CAL turned off anyways at this point. I have roughed the volume in and am testing once a day in the evening. I figure, with a steady dose all day, if I see it in testing, hopefully it pretty well represents the amount that actually remains in my water column with relative consistency. I know there will be some swings, but hopefully not swings to zero.

I kinda figured, based on different responses and other posts/videos, targeting 0.10ppm was a good figure to shoot for. My goal is to try and obtain that and then keep it there and see what happens.

Thanks for the specific details about the advice. Its really helpful for someone who just doesn't know. lol.

Also, I will be rereading Mr. Balling's comments. Very good source of info indeed!

 

[Skep18]

I agree with @Potatohead here. Think of rock/sand (especially dry rock/sand) as a PO4 sponge. Every time you dose the rock and sand will suck it up. You will likely have to dose PO4 daily for multiple weeks at least before things balance out. Then hopefully you can get to a less frequent maintenance dose or feeding can take over.

If you want a very cheap microscope for dino ID only then you don't have to spend a fortune and can get a cheap toy microscope from amazon. Just make sure you get slides and coverslips as well. Taking cell phone photos is a bit of a challenge but you can take them with a very steady hand. You definitely get what you pay for and I will not blame you for going for a more expensive scope as they are fun to mess around with.


Again good luck!

Thanks for the info. I was definitely unsure is special equipment was needed to get photos on a microscope or not. It seemed it shouldn't as many on here are posting photos but I just didn't want to pull the trigger until I heard a little more. If I had a clue, that would be one thing. But on this, I definitely have no idea, lol.

Good call on the slides and cover slips as well! I know I would have forgotten that.

 

[Skep18]

Skep18,
2 years is an established aquarium, to me I suspect you have an undetectable toxin in your aquarium. I read over this article and found some interesting points. http://blog.coralwonders.com/en/dinoflagelados-en-el-acuario-marino/
If you have a close reef store, I suggest running a 10 gallon nano tank run completely off water supplied from their store, this would rule out an airborne toxin getting into your tank. If you cant keep drags thriving in that environment maybe its something in the air?
Jim

Interesting idea. I definitely don't disagree with you. I think I'll flush out some of these other posted ideas first but will keep this in mind should I still struggle in all of this. I thought about getting outside water but just wish I had a way to send mine off to be more thoroughly tested to confirm/deny things. That said, unless you know what you're testing for, I think finding contaminants maybe difficult but admittedly, I am no chemist so I am not sure.

Thanks for the idea!

 

[Skep18]

What is the max you're running your white channel?
How many hours are you above 200 PAR where the frags are?

I had the white channel @ 50% but my LED's are 15in above the water line. I think I measured yesterday, but I measured at tank top, not water line. I have a Seneye so I have always confirmed my PAR levels when messing with light settings. Before this week though, I had not changed my light settings for well over 6 months. PAR at the frag rack was probably around 225ish. My photoperiod is 7hr a day with ramping for an hour before and after.

That said, I just installed new T5's and changed my settings. Having put actinics in there, I not have 2/ea Actinics and 2/ea Blue+. I just measured my PAR again. It's 250 at the frag rack during my high light period.

 

[Skep18]

Check out the dino thread super helpful. Erradication depends on what type of dino it is. In most cases with dinos that free swim at night UV is the most effect approach. Most of the types of dino also respond well to stopping all water changes, increasing no3 and po4 zero of both is bad, no 2 part dosing, no trace element dosing, no coral foods or aminos and heavy dosing of good bacteria. I did all of this as well has removed all sand while fighting amphidinium and ostreopsis. Removing the sand eliminated the amphidinium and UV was the most effective against ostreopsis.

I run across that thread a bit. I have not read anywhere near all of it though. I think its quite long IIRC. That said, I definitely am trying to implement those ideas over time. Trying to take it slowly though too. Before all this, I was slowly removing my sand bed a little every water change. I love the look of sand but want to crank up my flow some more. It seems to mound up when I get my flow in all areas.

I have stopped my 2 part dosing altogether as of now. I hadn't had my DOS dosing much anyways prior to this. But for sure, I am not doing WC or dosing those at this time.

I am still looking into a microscope. I need to pull the trigger on one although I admit, I am unsure how much it'll matter if I just treat these as dinos anyways. That said, if there's one thing I can confirm, its that I do not know it all and if the people are saying to ID it, I need to ID it.

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate the feedback!

 

[Skep18]

Skep, definitely get the scope or find a way to test for Dino’s. But you should consider the possibility that your system is carbon limited if you do rule that out. P/N/bacteria - these bio systems need some amount of carbon to cycle properly, and for sterile reefs with dead rock originally it’s not a given that it’s finding a way into your system on its own. I doubt it’s your lights, flow, params.. it could be Dino’s, and it could be a broken nutrient cycle. I don’t know why some people have no issue with nutes and others do, but it often is the case.

If you’re dosing P/N and the readings remain unchanged, consider this possibility.
Good luck.

I will do. I am very intrigued by the idea of dosing carbon with NO3 and PO4. I will refrain for now to see if NO3 and PO4 alone can "fix" this. But if time shows I continue to struggle, I will look more into that and/or contact you! lol.

 

[Skep18]

Thanks again to all who continue to contribute. There's a lot of good feedback on here. Some of it I maybe expected but was reluctant to accept. Getting hit over the head with the same feedback over and over has been good to help me get over myself, admit I maybe wrong and will take these ideas and work toward implementing them. Other suggestions are completely new to me and have been very stimulating and helpful. All in all, I think all the various experiences everyone is bringing has been good and I hope it proves to be invaluable in fixing my issue.

That said, I have done a couple of things to the tank, working a bit hard the past couple days. I know this might not be in the best interest of stability but seeing as I continue to struggle, I kinda wanted to get them done before I strive for "stability".

I have installed the additional set of T5's on my fixture. I am now running 2/ea Blue+ and 2/ea Actinics. My LED fixture is 15in above the water surface. I have turned my whites down and am now at 95% on my blues and 20% on my whites at my peak photoperiod which is 7hr a day with 1hr ramping on each side of that. My tank's PAR as measured by my Seneye is between ~225 PAR in the low areas to ~425 PAR in the highest rock peaks. Most of the "ideal" rock surfaces seem to be in the 325-375 PAR range.

Pic for details:

Subjectively, I really didn't realize how white my daytime lights were until I turned the white LED's back down. I do like the more blue daylight look I get now with the T5's added. To be clear, I had 2/ea Blue+ prior to the installation of the Actinics. I have had the Blue+ for over a year.

I have gotten the Jebao SOW-20 in. I got it to "test it" against my Neptune WAV pumps. While the Jebao is rated at ~25% higher than the WAV's, it seems like it pushes out 200% of the flow. Not sure if its just new or what but I will be keeping the Jebaos for now. I have a second coming to run them in sync. Should I get corals to ACTUALLY grow, I will likely swap out the Jebaos for a quality powerhead. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised with the features and performance of the Jebaos.

Finally, as stated in an earlier reply today, I have taken my ALK and CAL out of my DDR and filled them with NO3 and PO4 liquid. I am working on establishing a dosing regiment to target ~10ppm NO3 and ~0.10ppm PO4. After dosing steadily throughout one full day, I got a reading of 0.04ppm PO4 in the evening. This seems good as I had not dosed manually all day. Usually manual doses deplete quickly so it is hard to say if things are consistent. I hope to dial the dose in to get daily tests at my target number, or close to it.

Again, thanks to everyone for the feedback. I might not be able to get on here every day but I will be continuing to keep this thread updated for any of those interested. As others have stated, this will obviously likely be a long term monitoring conversation. Hopefully it yields results though. I still have a few items to order online to act in accordance with ideas on here. I will update as they come in.

Thank you everyone!

 

[Skep18]

I am continuing to read on here about some ideas for Dinos. I wanted to get some feedback from others possibly on them. While reading them, also consider I feel I might should be hesitant to doing too much at once. Some of these maybe best left for people with otherwise healthy tanks that get dinos. Not necessarily for tanks like mine that are the Chernobyl of reef tanks...

1) Some people are recommending dosing Microbacter7. Is this generally specific to the bacteria culture in this product or will other products work as well? I started my tanks on BioSpira and keep that on hand. I suspect adding more of the same will not do any good though.

1a) When they say "dose" the Microbacter7, is that literally following a daily regiment or does that just mean add the bottle? I see on BRS, they advise a dosing regiment for high and low nutrient systems:

Instructions and Guidelines

Shake product well before using. Mix appropriate volume of MicrōBacter7 (see below) with 250-ml (~8 fl. oz.) of aquarium water in a clean container prior to addition to aquarium. If using a pipette to dispense MicrōBacter7 below water level of container or aquarium, be sure to thoroughly clean pipette with fresh water prior to placing tube back into MicrōBacter7 bottle; failure to do so will contaminate the product. Best results may be obtained by adding mixture to external biological filtration system (if applicable). Do not add to pump intake port(s). For best results, use within 1-year of purchase date. Grossly overdosing MicrōBacter7 will not significantly increase the effectiveness of the product, nor the rate at which it enacts changes in aquaria. The following recommendations are based upon extensive testing and will produce the best results in most aquaria.

Medium- to High-nutrient Systems, or to seed Biological Filtration in new aquaria:
To effectively decrease the concentration of available nutrients and waste material in all marine and freshwater aquaria, add 5 ml (1 capful) per 25 US-gallons (94.6 L) [≈4 drops per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water daily for the first two weeks of use; the impact that MicrōBacter7 has on an aquarium is most evident within this period. Turn protein skimming and UV-sterilization off for a period of 4 hours following addition to aquaria. A noticeable difference in water clarity is typically apparent within 30-minutes of dosing. Follow same instructions for new aquarium start-up. Thereafter, switch to “low-nutrient” dosage (below).

Stable, Low-nutrient Systems:
To maintain a low concentration of available nutrients in all marine and freshwater aquaria, 5 ml (1 capful) of MicrōBacter7 per 50 US-gallons (189.3 L) [≈2 drops per gallon (3.8 L)] of aquarium water no more than once each week; alternately, add 1 drop per 50 US-gallons daily (or 1 drop per 25 US-gallons every other day). Turn protein skimming and UV-sterilization off for a period of 4 hours following addition to aquaria. Dosage may be adjusted according to perceived benefit to aquarium, however it is recommended that the dosage not exceed 1 drop per 10 US-gallons per day. With time, hobbyists may determine that decreasing the dosage and/or dosing frequency by up to 50% sufficiently maintains a low-nutrient environment. During changes in biological filtration or when increasing the aquarium bioload, dose 1 drop per 25 US-gallons daily for one week, then resume “low-nutrient” dosage.

2) Some recommend dosing phytoplankton. Aside from competing for water column nutrients, I'm not sure I understand this one. Is there some community empirical evidence behind this one?

As always, ty!

 

[TexasTodd]

IME 50% on whites is much too high on that fixture. I ran mine 17" above the water. I had SPS die very specifically under the white diodes, especially when I first ran it about 7" off the water.

If you're worried about biodiversity, I'd add some of that really good cultured rock out of the keys. I think @alton knows the name of it.

 

[bobssecrtsn]

I have a 175g total volume and I go through P.E mysis like no other. It usually last me 1.5 weeks per pack My fishes eats everything up before the minute is over, they’re fatties. I tried using LRS frenzy Thinking it would be more of a variety of food. It is, but my po4 spiked to .07 and I’m starting to see some cyano on my rocks. I’m back to mysis now and doing some WC.


I would suggest one thing. I know it’ll be an eye sore. But turn off your whites,green,reds on your LED. It will slow algae growth.