Undulated Moray and Miniatus Grouper Pairing

[harrisgunter]

I have a 125 reef tank with 35 gallon sump with an undulated moray, miniatus grouper, and picasso triggerfish. My cleanup crew consists of a handful of turbo snails (was around 20 now much less because of the triggerfish) and a horshoe crab and chocolate starfish. I have had much luck with many different lps and especially my gsp is taking off but hardly any luck on most sps and soft corals. I am currently vodka dosing 3.6ml per day and feeding a mixture of clams, LRS chunky, krill, silversides, and whole shrimp. Attached is a video of my eel and grouper in the same hole which they seem to have a hunting relationship together which I have read about can happen in the wild. The eel is currently about 1.5ft and the grouper close to 8in. I currently have a decent GHA outbreak and looking for advice on what I can introduce to eat it. I am thinking about a short spine urchin. Also how much should I feed the undulated moray? I have read many sources saying twice weekly large meals but I found he likes just 2 silversides every other day or a whole shrimp.

P.S.
sorry for the quality of video, under blues after 8pm is about the only time I can get a decent video of the eel and grouper together without the grouper darting into an unseen spot. Also the LFS I had bought my eel from claimed he was a fimbriated yellow head but I later researched and I believe he is an undulated.

 

[harrisgunter]

I have a 125 reef tank with 35 gallon sump with an undulated moray, miniatus grouper, and picasso triggerfish. My cleanup crew consists of a handful of turbo snails (was around 20 now much less because of the triggerfish) and a horshoe crab and chocolate starfish. I have had much luck with many different lps and especially my gsp is taking off but hardly any luck on most sps and soft corals. I am currently vodka dosing 3.6ml per day and feeding a mixture of clams, LRS chunky, krill, silversides, and whole shrimp. Attached is a video of my eel and grouper in the same hole which they seem to have a hunting relationship together which I have read about can happen in the wild. The eel is currently about 1.5ft and the grouper close to 8in. I currently have a decent GHA outbreak and looking for advice on what I can introduce to eat it. I am thinking about a short spine urchin. Also how much should I feed the undulated moray? I have read many sources saying twice weekly large meals but I found he likes just 2 silversides every other day or a whole shrimp.

P.S.
sorry for the quality of video, under blues after 8pm is about the only time I can get a decent video of the eel and grouper together without the grouper darting into an unseen spot. Also the LFS I had bought my eel from claimed he was a fimbriated yellow head but I later researched and I believe he is an undulated.

If the video does not work here are some better images

 

[HAAAAAAAA]

Also how much should I feed the undulated moray? I have read many sources saying twice weekly large meals but I found he likes just 2 silversides every other day or a whole shrimp.

I would consider the eel to be small so a large scale feedings of 3 times a week would be considered ideal and as it grows the feedings will be lowered from 2 times a week to 1 time a week since the younger the eel is the more nutrients it will need to grow hence more the feedings, I recommend not to feed it more than 3 times a week since they can develop digestive issues


As for the species it does look like an undulated moray but @ISpeakForTheSeas has more knowledge regarding the species and will have a more better answer

 

[littlefoxx]

If the video does not work here are some better images

I let my eels tell me when they are hungry. Sometimes they take one or two pieces of food other times they take more. They come out and swim when I feed the tank if they want food.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

As for the species it does look like an undulated moray but @ISpeakForTheSeas has more knowledge regarding the species and will have a more better answer

It does look like an undulated moray (Gymnothorax undulatus).

feeding a mixture of clams, LRS chunky, krill, silversides, and whole shrimp. Attached is a video of my eel and grouper in the same hole which they seem to have a hunting relationship together which I have read about can happen in the wild. The eel is currently about 1.5ft and the grouper close to 8in. I currently have a decent GHA outbreak and looking for advice on what I can introduce to eat it. I am thinking about a short spine urchin. Also how much should I feed the undulated moray? I have read many sources saying twice weekly large meals but I found he likes just 2 silversides every other day or a whole shrimp.

Somewhat off-topic, but is this the long-term tank for the eel and grouper here? These will both get pretty big, and a 180+ gallon tank more be more appropriately sized for them long-term.

Anyway, back on topic here. At that size, I'd probably be feeding two to three times a week; I'd probably drop to one or two times a week once it hits 2-2.5 feet in length, and to just once a week once it hits 3 feet:

Depending on the size, anywhere from once every 3 days to once every 7 days (but more likely 5) may be appropriate.

As littlefoxx mentioned, though, waiting for the eel to start "hunting" (roaming the tank in search of food) is a good way to tell how often the eel is getting hungry (this is a bit risky with fangtooth eels in particular, though, as they may decide to hunt other critters - notably fish and, depending on the species of eel even within the Gymnothorax genus, possibly crustaceans - in the tank).

I don't know exactly how much an eel should eat each feeding, as they feed and a fast/gorge schedule and - as a result - don't follow the typical fish aquaculture rules of 3-5% of their bodyweight per day. The general rule I see at this point is to feed until satiation each feeding.


With regards to your eel's diet:

Clams, LRS, and whole shrimp are good (provided the shrimp are relatively fresh), but you will want to be careful feeding krill and silversides; the silversides may or may not be okay depending on the exact species of fish (the term "silverside" is used for a large number of different species, some of which are fine for predatory fish, and some of which are not).

Things to feed:

With regards to the long-term diet, I'd suggest adding a good, fatty fish like salmon (the gold-standard) or mackerel (a good, second place), squid is a good one to add, crabs too if you can do so without breaking the bank, and then I'd also add in some algae (preferably multiple types) to get a few more vitamins and minerals in there that might not be supplied by the meat.

With all the foods, the fresher the better, and the more intact the shrimp is (head, tail, shell, etc.) the better. Ulva, Halymenia, and Nori would be my first suggestions for algae to add, but others like Porphyra and Spirulina would be good too. I doubt the eel would eat the algae by itself, so supplementing it either with algae pellets (such as NLS Marine Fish Pellets), an algal gelatin feed, or through something like wrapping the meat in the algae would be my suggestion.

Predators typically get their "vegetables" (like algae) from their prey - when they eat the herbivores, they eat the vegetables in the prey's organs too.

So, they may or may not purposefully eat the vegetables, but they often still play an important in predator health/nutrition.

For the specific diet, my recommendations would be:

-Salmon and/or mackerel

-Clam, mussel, and/or oyster (scallops should not be used)

-Squid and/or octopus

-Fresh/live whole shrimp

-Fresh crab


Other good additions include:

-Other high quality fish meats (high in healthy fats and protein; low in thiaminase)

-Live brackish/saltwater feeder fish (such as guppies and/or mollies; freshwater feeder fish like rosies and goldfish should not be used)

-High quality feeds like those quoted below (which I would suggest feeding to feeder animals before offering the animals to a predator)

Personally, my suggested feeds would be as follows (I apologize, I haven't looked into frozen algae-heavy feeds enough to have one that I would suggest at this point; I'll have to remedy that):
Frozen (Meaty) - LRS Reef Frenzy, Hikari Mega Marine, then Rod's Original.

Pellets (Meaty) - Otohime, then TDO Chromaboost.
Pellets (Algal) - NLS Marine Fish Pellets (has 8 types of algae and one terrestrial plant).

(Some of the other NLS feed lines are good as well, so I may need to update my list.)

Things to avoid:

You want to be careful feeding krill, silversides, and even shrimp - the reason is the Thiaminase, which breaks down Vitamin B1; by all accounts that I've heard, if predators develop a vitamin B1 deficiency, they will die from it.

Fresh/live shrimp is fine, but shrimp that has been frozen/stored for a long time will have some of the vitamin B1 it contains breakdown while the thiaminase stays in tact - this can lead to it adding to the thiaminase in a predator's diet with little vitamin B1 to counteract it.

Some kinds of silversides are fine, but a lot of silversides are high in thiaminase (there are a ton of different species known as silversides) - the last I've heard, San Francisco Bay Brand (January of this year) was the one with good silversides to use.

Krill is high in thiaminase, and should largely be avoided with predators.

Krill is not good, and extremely bad as the only food. Krill is high in thiaminese and low in fat. Thiaminese binds vitamin B1 and can prove deadly within several months. Eels need a good amount of fat, and fats high in omega 3. If you do not include more beneficial additions to their diet, it will prove deadly. A lacking diet could also force the eel to eat something that they would not have otherwise eaten. Here's a thread I wrote about good foods to include a diet for predatory fish, I've also written threads specifically about eels and one that talks about the importance of fats. You can click my name and "find all threads",

If it were me; I would boost mg to 1600ppm, offer live gut loaded ghost shrimp, slivers of wild skin on salmon, and mussels. The live food will be complete nutrition, salmon contains the best fats, and mussels contain a good amount of B1. The mg will help with digestion and help pass any potential blockage.

Lion King's dead food recommendations

I'm a health nut if you haven't noticed, this also translates to my pets. Today I will cover some of the dead foods I feed and why, with some nutritional info that I recall off the top of my head. This is by no means all the foods you can feed, these are just the ones I include in my feedings...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is a clue; scallops are high in thiaminase. True silversides are not, but most of the aquarium “silversides” being sold are really a type of smelt, and those are high as well. I think only the Sanfrancisco bay brand is true silversides. Shrimp are also slightly high. What this could mean is that over time, your eel became deficient in thiamin. I always supplement predatory fish diets with thiamin and vitamin E.

If you have questions on the thiaminase content of a species of fish you may want to feed to your lions, see the link below:

Alternative foods for predatory fish

Hello I have some predatory fish (miniatus grouper, clown grouper, tesalata eel, small red tooth trigger) I am currently feed them whole fish sold at my local fish shop but its becoming quite pricey what other alternatives could I fees them from a supermarket?

www.reef2reef.com

That said, salmon is pretty much the gold standard; mackerel is a decent second place to my understanding.

For more info, the below may help, and feel free to ask questions if you have them:

Here's 3 of my most comprehensive threads on feeding lionfish and other predators.

Lion King's dead food recommendations

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www.reef2reef.com

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www.reef2reef.com

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