Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Fyi, appears you can get the same stuff in the pool supply at Lowes. A gallon for $16.

Yes, Busan 77 (mentioned in the thread title) is a pool and freshwater algaecide product. and people use other pool products in reefing all the time... Like SeaKlear...

 

[ingchr1]

Dilute it down to 3.5% and resell for $30 per 8oz...

Fyi, appears you can get the same stuff in the pool supply at Lowes. A gallon for $16.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Dilute it down to 3.5% and resell for $30 per 8oz...

On special for $25 for R2R members

 

[workhz]

On special for $25 for R2R members

But wait. You can win it in a ‘raffle’. Just buy $500 worth of majestic galactic super rare corals, like us on youtwit(now know as x)face, join the special r2r member founders club and post a pic of your pool errr tank to this thread at ten till for the next 36 hrs straight. Also please send a dm so I can send you the code to procure on Amazon, but you’ll actually have to buy it first, leave a positive review and then you get the code. Sigh.

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah - why not

 

[MnFish1]

But wait. You can win it in a ‘raffle’. Just buy $500 worth of majestic galactic super rare corals, like us on youtwit(now know as x)face, join the special r2r member founders club and post a pic of your pool errr tank to this thread at ten till for the next 36 hrs straight. Also please send a dm so I can send you the code to procure on Amazon, but you’ll actually have to buy it first, leave a positive review and then you get the code. Sigh.

Have you lost your mind?

 

[Later Tater]

Actually, since we're talking about other similar products. I wish the study had included:

Brightwell Razor Marine / Continuum Aquatics Equation M
These are "Complex systemic cleaning polymer products" and "flocculants" (From brightwell's website).
A couple of excerpts from a YouTube interview with Jeremy from Brightwell.

• Razor is a chemical that releases the foothold of the algae so like Bryopsis or any hair algae. It'll get in underneath the foothold of the algae, and you could actually vacuum it off the rock.
• Razor keeps the algae from actually adhering to the surface.
• Razor is claimed not to affect chaeto. It's got a pretty thick cell wall. Will affect GHA

@taricha, I get the feeling you'll be the expert on Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77 by now. Does this description match the mechanism by which these algaecides work?

It'd be useful to know if Razor / Equation M are a valid alternatives to Vibrant, or two other products to skip entirely.
Equation M product page says it is NOT an algaecide.

@taricha

Hello,

I've read through much of this thread, and it seems the consensus settled on that Razor was NOT an algaecide, at least the same algaecide as Vibrant. Did you ever do the same polymer test with the color changing for any additional products like these?

Thanks for any input I am trying to decide if they are safe to try.

 

[taricha]

Did you ever do the same polymer test with the color changing for any additional products like these?

I have done the same chem tests on Razor, and I do not know exactly which cationic polymer/polyquat it is, but I know it is one, and that they have you add enough of it to harm algae, so I'll just share what I've said previously.

"They claim specifically on the bottle it’s not an Algaecide."

yep. And having looked at that product a decent amount, I do not know why they say that on the bottle.

I agree more with this part of the instructions where they explicitly anticipate it affecting algae...

"Used as directed, it is safe for marine fishes, hard and soft corals, and other inverts, as well as most macro-algae, however, as all animals are individuals, and water conditions vary in many aquariums, animals should be observed closely during use, for signs of stress (corals closing and not re-opening, erratic behavior etc.). If signs of stress occur, or if macro-algae are affected negatively, reduce or discontinue use as necessary. If symptoms persist, do a partial water change and add carbon."

Thanks for any input I am trying to decide if they are safe to try.

since you mention safety, I'll say that (from what anecdotes I've seen) people who've used that product seem to report irritated corals etc more often than people who used the labeled algaecide in Algaefix etc.

 

[SDchris]

@taricha Thanks for all your input.

I have used Continuum Equation M twice (1 year appart) to treat bubble algae. Once with coral once without. Both times my Yellow Tang stopped eating for about 6 weeks and its behaviour change becoming very shy and reclusive, with skin turning cloudy. I have a Kole Tang which showed no adverse effects
Both times the bubble algae turned translucent before dislodging, in contrast to the description noted on the bottle.

 

[Later Tater]

I have done the same chem tests on Razor, and I do not know exactly which cationic polymer/polyquat it is, but I know it is one, and that they have you add enough of it to harm algae, so I'll just share what I've said previously.

"They claim specifically on the bottle it’s not an Algaecide."




since you mention safety, I'll say that (from what anecdotes I've seen) people who've used that product seem to report irritated corals etc more often than people who used the labeled algaecide in Algaefix etc.

Thanks for your clarification. Agreed it is a little wild they so explicitly and specifically say "not an algaecide" on the bottle. I wonder what they would call it otherwise, a polymer-based algae reduction liquid formulation ? Just to add that instead of saying nothing I can't understand, unless they really are unaware which is even worse in my opinion!

 

[taricha]

Yep. Clarifying that confusion will be another topic for another time...
But we knew what sort of chemical it is - and how people say it behaves in their system, which is sufficient info for the hobbyist to make an informed choice.

 

[VintageReefer]

I used it on a tank for 2 months as directed. It did eliminate the hair algae and eventually the bubble algae. I lost zero corals or inverts and had no side effects. This tank did not have sps though and back before anyone figured out what it was

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

I have done the same chem tests on Razor, and I do not know exactly which cationic polymer/polyquat it is, but I know it is one, and that they have you add enough of it to harm algae, so I'll just share what I've said previously.

"They claim specifically on the bottle it’s not an Algaecide."




since you mention safety, I'll say that (from what anecdotes I've seen) people who've used that product seem to report irritated corals etc more often than people who used the labeled algaecide in Algaefix etc.

100% I stay away from razor, underdosed it once with acropora, they all turned pale for a few weeks I know I had some stn and the algae slowly died off a few weeks later.

when I saw it affect the corals long before the algae I knew then it has no preference in what algae it attacks, and the algae in my coral is weaker than the bubble and hair algae that doest require much to survive.

 

[MnFish1]

Perhaps the lesson for all of these posts is not putting something in your aquarium that you can't measure. I'm guessing that it's possible that some failures of these products relate to mis-dosing due to overestimated tank volume. That's only a theory, however. If one doesn't use potential problem chemicals at all - there is no reason to know what's in them. I have used one of them once - it worked great at the minimal algae problem I had - but - other things 'seemed' to suffer. I would strongly advise against quick fixes, whether that be algae removers or anything else. One thing is clear - that after reading many posts suggesting that the products do what they say they do, Perhaps another area of research is looking at why some people have devastating or semi-devastating results with some of these products....?

 

[jda]

UWC Reaches Settlement with EPA

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-reaches-settlement-underwater-creations-inc-st-louis-park-minnesota-alleged TLDR: have to stop production and pay $226k fine. Understand that criminal personal charges are still pending at both a state and federal.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

thanks again to you the folks doing the studies that got the epa to investigate.

 

[jda]

I guess that UWC is free to respond to everybody now? This is what he told Mn Dept of Ag when they came on site:

I guess the apologists and excuse makers might have a hard time navigating this one.

Dude did not even buy wholesale Busan 77, but rather bought retail pool algaecide at a higher price? Maybe that is why API, Fritz and other companies are able to see their product at higher strength for less money. Bad Business 101 right here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess that UWC is free to respond to everybody now? This is what he told Mn Dept of Ag when they came on site:

I guess the apologists and excuse makers might have a hard time navigating this one.

Dude did not even buy wholesale Busan 77, but rather bought retail pool algaecide at a higher price? Maybe that is why API, Fritz and other companies are able to see their product at higher strength for less money. Bad Business 101 right here.

There’s probably a paper trail to buy wholesale. Cash at a pool store, not so much. lol

 

[Doctorgori]

I used it on a tank for 2 months as directed. It did eliminate the hair algae and eventually the bubble algae. I lost zero corals or inverts and had no side effects. This tank did not have sps though and back before anyone figured out what it was

Yeah my sample was similar…the garbage actually worked for me yet I’m still peeved….
Sorta like fix-a-flat works for butt augmentation but not really LOL

 

[Lasse]

I do not know much of US laws and US bureaucratic language but when I read the paper from the EPA it seems to me that the crime is not that these products content a registered pesticid but instead was the crime that the products was sold with the intention to eradicate a pest without being registered as a pesticid

is intended for a pesticidal purpose

For me - its means that the illegality consists in the purpose - not the content. with other words - if the purpose with a product is to eradicate something that is defined as a pest it must be registered as a pesticid.

If I´m right in this interpretation - I think that more companies than UC that sells this type of products (products that have a goal to eradicate a pest) in US can have problems with the law here.

Please correct me if I´m wrong

Sincerely Lasse