Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[MnFish1]

Is that for me? I’m only asking the question that I haven’t see anyone else asking before

Actually - they have all been asked and discussed. That said, The constant insinuation that anyone that asks a question is somehow an agent of UWC - is a little insulting - to a fellow reefer - so I think the comment to you was not deserved.

To answer your question - more thoroughly - I agree with your questions (i.e. the results are not totally consistent - the bacterial one - meaning that those tests are probably in error somehow - and I wouldn't believe them) - BUT the NMR showing the chemical present in vibrant very very strongly suggests that the inconsistencies in the other testing are LIKELY not an issue with the conclusion that vibrant contains an algaecide. I disagree with some of the vehemence that people want to dissuade questioning though. But - thats how it is on this thread.

In other words - rather than questioning the NMR results - which seem clear (and is a fairly standardized test) - the bacterial testing - is likely not standardized - and there may be some methodology issues with those tests).

Lastly - I believe that I know where you're from - and that its several thousands of miles away from UWC - making you an agent of them extremely unlikely.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So are you advocating that all the products available today on the market that contain this ingredient are killing important organisms in our systems? Jda is a repetition of taricha on the polymer finding I’d like to see more work on the microbes as taricha has shown the vials not to be sterile.

I never made any claims about this polymer killing things, although it is an approved molluscicide, which should be a warning sign.

The problem is false labeling, which prevents folks from making their own informed decisions.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Actually - they have all been asked and discussed. That said, The constant insinuation that anyone that asks a question is somehow an agent of UWC - is a little insulting - to a fellow reefer - so I think the comment to you was not deserved.

To answer your question - more thoroughly - I agree with your questions (i.e. the results are not totally consistent - the bacterial one - meaning that those tests are probably in error somehow - and I wouldn't believe them) - BUT the NMR showing the chemical present in vibrant very very strongly suggests that the inconsistencies in the other testing are LIKELY not an issue with the conclusion that vibrant contains an algaecide. I disagree with some of the vehemence that people want to dissuade questioning though. But - thats how it is on this thread.

In other words - rather than questioning the NMR results - which seem clear (and is a fairly standardized test) - the bacterial testing - is likely not standardized - and there may be some methodology issues with those tests).

Lastly - I believe that I know where you're from - and that its several thousands of miles away from UWC - making you an agent of them extremely unlikely.

You never know a new international branch may have been added
In all seriousness there is a lot of people that I respect in this thread I just want to make sure that it’s bullet proof, as you mentioned I don’t believe that the bacterial option has been fully and properly explored yet imo also.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You never know a new international branch may have been added
In all seriousness there is a lot of people that I respect in this thread I just want to make sure that it’s bullet proof, as you mentioned I don’t believe that the bacterial option has been fully and properly explored yet imo also.

Bacteria or no, UWC stated flat out it contains no algaecide. Scientific tests show otherwise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You never know a new international branch may have been added
In all seriousness there is a lot of people that I respect in this thread I just want to make sure that it’s bullet proof, as you mentioned I don’t believe that the bacterial option has been fully and properly explored yet imo also.

The problems with focusing on culturing bacteria to prove they are or are not there are:

1. Mere presence of a culturable bacteria says nothing about whether that bacterium will kill algae in a reef tank.

2. If none are found, the criticism could endlessly be that the culturing conditions were not right.

3. The polymer that is in Vibrant will kill some bacteria, as well as other organisms, making culturing challenging.

At the end of the day, I don’t care if it contains a few bacteria that one might expand up to significant numbers. It does contain the algaecide, does not contain other things it claims to have, and that’s enough for me to call foul on the product.

 

[Dan_P]

The problems with focusing on culturing bacteria to prove they are or are not there are:

1. Mere presence of a culturable bacteria says nothing about whether that bacterium will kill algae in a reef tank.

2. If none are found, the criticism could endlessly be that the culturing conditions were not right.

I would add…

Anyone advocating the culturing of bacteria in Vibrant needs to check their assumptions about the value of adding bacteria to an aquarium to manage macro algae growth. Show us the scientific data that supports macro algae can be managed with bacteria additions to an aquarium. If there is none, proving that bacteria exist in Vibrant is a meaningless exercise.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I would add…

Anyone advocating the culturing of bacteria in Vibrant needs to check their assumptions about the value of adding bacteria to an aquarium to manage macro algae growth. Show us the scientific data that supports macro algae can be managed with bacteria additions to an aquarium. If there is none, proving that bacteria exist in Vibrant is a meaningless exercise.

I was expecting more of you Dan, algae management with bacteria is done daily in the hobby although is not widely understood by most in the hobby, if a specific bacteria exists in the bottle that could be beneficial to slow down or outcompete the algae for nutrients is still to be confirmed to be able to make any kind of conclusion.
just because some don’t understand how something works it doesn’t mean that we can go an make assumption.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was expecting more of you Dan, algae management with bacteria is done daily in the hobby although is not widely understood by most in the hobby, if a specific bacteria exists in the bottle that could be beneficial to slow down or outcompete the algae for nutrients is still to be confirmed to be able to make any kind of conclusion.
just because some don’t understand how something works it doesn’t mean that we can go an make assumption.

They have said it is not working just by reducing nutrients or by competition.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s a very prophetic and misleading statement they made:

“Here is where it gets harder to explain, the function of one of the other bacteria is to actual go in and cling to the algae and consume them turning their waste then into biomass also which is then utilized by the corals or later removed by protein skimming or water changes. The beautiful thing is, this is not like using some crazy algaecide that just leaves a bomb of nutrients in your tank as the algae die leading you on a downward spiral of issue after issue. Once your algae issue is gone, you can stop dosing vibrant or you can simply use it as part of your routine maintenance to keep your tank looking nice and clean all the time.”

Vibrant Liquid Aquarium Cleaner * Discussion Thread

Hello Everyone, We had been asked to come on this forum and answer a few questions about Vibrant for a few users here in different threads. We thought it would be a good idea to start a discussion thread about Vibrant, how it was created, what is it, how it works, etc. Then there will be a...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

They have said it is not working just by reducing nutrients or by competition.

Actually - im going to disagree with this point - There are NUMEROUS studies - some posted earlier - that show that bacterial toxins kill algae. - Again - this does not take away from the central ship that has sailed - that Vibrant seems t contain Quats based on the NMR. But - there are numerous studies that show bacteria can produce direct toxins that kill algae.

 

[MnFish1]

here are some articles - none of which refute the comment that vibrant contains a Quad. But - its not an unreasonable question/comment. Thus - I guess since we're talking about the science of algae, quotes and bacteria - these articles and the multiples thereof may add to the discussion

Bacilysin from Bacillus amyloliquefaciens FZB42 Has Specific Bactericidal Activity against Harmful Algal Bloom Species

Harmful algal blooms, caused by massive and exceptional overgrowth of microalgae and cyanobacteria, are a serious environmental problem worldwide. In the present study, we looked for Bacillus strains with sufficiently strong anticyanobacterial activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Algicidal Bacteria: A Review of Current Knowledge and Applications to Control Harmful Algal Blooms

Interactions between bacteria and phytoplankton in aqueous ecosystems are both complex and dynamic, with associations that range from mutualism to parasitism...

www.frontiersin.org

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211926419311403

Isolation and Identification of Two Algae-Lysing Bacteria against Microcystis aeruginosa

Algae blooms present an environmental problem worldwide. In response to the outbreak of harmful algal blooms in cyanobacteria, the role of biological control has drawn wide attention, particularly for algicidal bacteria. The mechanism underlying algicidal activity was determined in our study...

www.mdpi.com

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Anyone else feel like these threads are like talking to flat earthers?

Whhhaaa? It’s not flat? Next you’re going to tell me the Easter Bunny isn’t real!

 

[Dan_P]

I was expecting more of you Dan, algae management with bacteria is done daily in the hobby although is not widely understood by most in the hobby, if a specific bacteria exists in the bottle that could be beneficial to slow down or outcompete the algae for nutrients is still to be confirmed to be able to make any kind of conclusion.
just because some don’t understand how something works it doesn’t mean that we can go an make assumption.

It sounds like you are basing you assumptions solely on anecdotal data, not science. So, let’s get back to discussing data not hearsay evidence. I am requesting what you requested, a bulletproof demonstration showing that adding a bottled bacteria controls macro algae, not something someone claims on social media.

 

[sixty_reefer]

here are some articles - none of which refute the comment that vibrant contains a Quad. But - its not an unreasonable question/comment. Thus - I guess since we're talking about the science of algae, quotes and bacteria - these articles and the multiples thereof may add to the discussion

Bacilysin from Bacillus amyloliquefaciens FZB42 Has Specific Bactericidal Activity against Harmful Algal Bloom Species

Harmful algal blooms, caused by massive and exceptional overgrowth of microalgae and cyanobacteria, are a serious environmental problem worldwide. In the present study, we looked for Bacillus strains with sufficiently strong anticyanobacterial activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Algicidal Bacteria: A Review of Current Knowledge and Applications to Control Harmful Algal Blooms

Interactions between bacteria and phytoplankton in aqueous ecosystems are both complex and dynamic, with associations that range from mutualism to parasitism...

www.frontiersin.org

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211926419311403

Isolation and Identification of Two Algae-Lysing Bacteria against Microcystis aeruginosa

Algae blooms present an environmental problem worldwide. In response to the outbreak of harmful algal blooms in cyanobacteria, the role of biological control has drawn wide attention, particularly for algicidal bacteria. The mechanism underlying algicidal activity was determined in our study...

www.mdpi.com

That’s really interesting I think I’ve seen someone claiming this on the thread about Cyanobacteria toxins

Cyanobacterial toxins as allelochemicals with potential applications as algaecides, herbicides and insecticides - PubMed

Cyanobacteria ("blue-green algae") from marine and freshwater habitats are known to produce a diverse array of toxic or otherwise bioactive metabolites. However, the functional role of the vast majority of these compounds, particularly in terms of the physiology and ecology of the cyanobacteria...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dan_P]

Whhhaaa? It’s not flat? Next you’re going to tell me the Easter Bunny isn’t real!

I do like the contrarianism...to a point

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

here are some articles - none of which refute the comment that vibrant contains a Quad. But - its not an unreasonable question/comment. Thus - I guess since we're talking about the science of algae, quotes and bacteria - these articles and the multiples thereof may add to the discussion

Bacilysin from Bacillus amyloliquefaciens FZB42 Has Specific Bactericidal Activity against Harmful Algal Bloom Species

Harmful algal blooms, caused by massive and exceptional overgrowth of microalgae and cyanobacteria, are a serious environmental problem worldwide. In the present study, we looked for Bacillus strains with sufficiently strong anticyanobacterial activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Algicidal Bacteria: A Review of Current Knowledge and Applications to Control Harmful Algal Blooms

Interactions between bacteria and phytoplankton in aqueous ecosystems are both complex and dynamic, with associations that range from mutualism to parasitism...

www.frontiersin.org

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211926419311403

Isolation and Identification of Two Algae-Lysing Bacteria against Microcystis aeruginosa

Algae blooms present an environmental problem worldwide. In response to the outbreak of harmful algal blooms in cyanobacteria, the role of biological control has drawn wide attention, particularly for algicidal bacteria. The mechanism underlying algicidal activity was determined in our study...

www.mdpi.com

Two of those links discuss cyano. Obviously lots of bacteria make bactericidal compounds. Erythromycin that many reefers use to kill cyano is a natural bacterial product.

Nevertheless, I was incorrect in asserting that bacteria were not known to kill macroalgae. This link discusses it:

Unraveling the strategies of marine bacteria that initiate fresh macroalgae breakdown

Due to their important chemical complexity, the utilization of macroalgae is mainly mediated by specialized marine heterotrophic bacteria. But what are the metabolic and ecological strategies of those bacteria to attack and use fresh algae?

microbiologycommunity.nature.com

Too bad UWC did not sell a product like that. lol

 

[Dan_P]

That’s really interesting I think I’ve seen someone claiming this on the thread about Cyanobacteria toxins

Cyanobacterial toxins as allelochemicals with potential applications as algaecides, herbicides and insecticides - PubMed

Cyanobacteria ("blue-green algae") from marine and freshwater habitats are known to produce a diverse array of toxic or otherwise bioactive metabolites. However, the functional role of the vast majority of these compounds, particularly in terms of the physiology and ecology of the cyanobacteria...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks for the references.

Sure these phenomena exist, but what is the relevance of these references? A common mistake in reading scientific papers on subject matter that isn’t your expertise Is to miss critical points. In this case generalizing the findings of pelagic studies to benthic ecologies, which by the way is a common mistake in our hobby. Also, no bottled bacteria vendor claims to be supplying a bacteria that harms algae, nor have we seen a reference showing a bacteria being lethal to GHA or safe with Chaetomorpha.

This is not the scientific evidence we are looking for.

 

[Dan_P]

Two of those links discuss cyano. Obviously lots of bacteria make bactericidal compounds. Erythromycin that many reefers use to kill cyano is a natural bacterial product.

Nevertheless, I was incorrect in asserting that bacteria were not known to kill macroalgae. This link discusses it:

Unraveling the strategies of marine bacteria that initiate fresh macroalgae breakdown

Due to their important chemical complexity, the utilization of macroalgae is mainly mediated by specialized marine heterotrophic bacteria. But what are the metabolic and ecological strategies of those bacteria to attack and use fresh algae?

microbiologycommunity.nature.com

Too bad UWC did not sell a product like that. lol

More relevant.

Interesting that they only tested brown algae. Are green and red not susceptible or research budget too small?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

More relevant.

Interesting that they only tested brown algae. Are green and red not susceptible or research budget too small?

Got to leave something for next years grant, Lol

 

[jda]

Is anybody else happy that UWC did not develop a potential bio weapon that could change life on the planet as we know it? This is one reason why I kinda knew that this was BS early on... a bacteria that ate all kinds of algae would devastate the world in the short term and we would have heard about it and folks with those white suits, plastic tunnels like in ET or Thor and every scientist in the world would be working on stopping it. Alexhavvagrammid would be on r2r telling everybody that is is not a bacteria that is eating all of the algae, it is cholonium, or something. Courtney would posting the most lucid and well-through responses on why that is nonsense.

Anybody want to bet that even after UWC admits to all of this to save some fines or jail time that people will still question parts of it?

...sorry for the rant. Delete this is it is too off topic. In the mean time, I laid out exactly how to get NMR done for normal folks who don't happen to know somebody or work in the industry. Kinda amazed that nobody who wants to ask questions has not done their own testing to disprove anything and just wants to be an armchair scientist (sarcasm).