Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[GARRIGA]

Yes, some may get released, either to the water or to the inside of an organism that is digesting the detritus/algae/whatever.

Didn't consider the decomposers in this equation. That's a good point. Skimmer likely the best way to remove those then.

 

[mcgullen]

This looks like outright fraud by UWC. They can get into serious legal troubles for this. It is one thing to engage in commercial puffery. It is quite another to intentionally lie in a material way.

 

[Snuggs]

Pretty solid evidence. Thank you! Now how to discard my bottle safely so there is no environmental impact

 

[Britishreefer]

Any news on UWC?

 

[FishOkay]

Any news on UWC?

Don't think they'll respond until they are forced too. I don't think this thread is enough for them to imo, they'll want it to blow over and anything they say will add to the fire. Maybe if brs or other companies did a video or wrote an article and prodded them for a response they might

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Pretty solid evidence. Thank you! Now how to discard my bottle safely so there is no environmental impact

You can always take them to the local town hazardous waste day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any news on UWC?

No news except that they repeated to Reef2Reef management that they intend to respond once they are finished dealing with the current inspection issues, etc.

 

[Sean Clark]

I wanted to post this "kick the can down the road" GIF but I thought that I shouldn't.

 

[Sean Clark]

Awe shoot... D'OH!

 

[Nsakis1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Is it likely that Vibrant started my ridiculously long battle with dinos? I’ve seen theories from others but figured since you are so active in replying, I would ask. Thanks in advance

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Is it likely that Vibrant started my ridiculously long battle with dinos? I’ve seen theories from others but figured since you are so active in replying, I would ask. Thanks in advance

I do not know if there is a link between dinos and vibrant use, but I think it likely that removing algae in any fashion may open the way for competing organisms such as dinos to take over the environmental niche.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Reminder: this thread is only open for science discussion, not for tangential topics, including lawsuits.

 

[ScottB]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Is it likely that Vibrant started my ridiculously long battle with dinos? I’ve seen theories from others but figured since you are so active in replying, I would ask. Thanks in advance

Like Randy suggested, anything that damages/kills/starves surface competitors is opening the door.
- Chemiclean kills surface bacteria like cyano and more. Somebody is going to fill that void fast. Dinos are fast.
- Too much GFO can strip out phosphates, a necessary macronutrient. The surface competitors that depend on that nutrient (all of them) starve. Queue dinos.

I see these two examples in the mega dino thread every day.

 

[Trickman2]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Is it likely that Vibrant started my ridiculously long battle with dinos? I’ve seen theories from others but figured since you are so active in replying, I would ask. Thanks in advance

I think it kicked it off in my daughters 25 gallon that I just reset because of it. I think Vibrant owes me some money...lol

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Not because of Vibrant, but I get cyano starting on my glass a day or 2 after stopping a tiny daily nitrate dose. The normal algae film will get covered by a film that traps air bubbles and reminds me to check on the nitrate dosing. The bubbles disappear during the day of resuming dosing like clockwork.

Salifert reads my nitrate as 0.2 and Hanna HR reads 0.0

I expect to need to continue the nitrate for the foreseeable.

 

[Gareth elliott]

For testing the mode of accumulation toxicity. Could an experiment be run as follows.

Dosing an organic laden tank as per instructions. Remove water after x time. Run through centrifuge. In two separate tanks. Add the liquid to one, in the other fill with new salt water and add the particulate matter.

In each tank watch the effects on identical invertebrates in each.

I might be over simplifying in my head though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For testing the mode of accumulation toxicity. Could an experiment be run as follows.

Dosing an organic laden tank as per instructions. Remove water after x time. Run through centrifuge. In two separate tanks. Add the liquid to one, in the other fill with new salt water and add the particulate matter.

In each tank watch the effects on identical invertebrates in each.

I might be over simplifying in my head though.

Tox tests are quite time consuming. I'd be surprised if anyone wants to spend the needed effort.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Tox tests are quite time consuming. I'd be surprised if anyone wants to spend the needed effort.

That would also be a massive amount of water to run into a centrifuge. Maybe just a really fine filter would work better and accept it isnt going to catch everything.

 

[Dan_P]

I pretty wary to accept that this graph implies long term stability of vibrant in a reef aquarium. I'd want to see data on more aquariums without vibrant use ever to see what sort of natural issues might replicate this graph.

One interpretation is that it disappears with a half life of a couple of days, and the effects from days 6 to 20 are other processes.

I wondered the same thing and more. Why does Vibrant work for some aquarists and not others? Why does it kill higher organisms but not necessarily do much damage to algae? With these questions in mind and the aid of the analytical method supplied (invented???) by @taricha, I performed several exploratory experiments to begin the search for some answers.

Polyquat Analytical Method

The method that I used was a slight modification of the @taricha method. A 10 mL water sample gently mixed with 0.2 mL 1% sodium dodecyl sulfate (SDS) and the mixture held 5 minutes before measuring the cloudiness with the Hanna Color of Water photometer (470 nm). The limit of detection limit is near the concentration of the recommended dose (see calibration curve). In thinking about any observations made with this method, I assumed that only unbound polyquat forms a precipitate with SDS.

Vibrant in Aquarium Water Samples Vibrant

Various aquarium water samples (50 mL) were each mixed with 5X the recommended dose of Vibrant in glass stoppered Erlenmeyer flasks and stored 24 hours. The experiment was then repeated the next day. There was no apparent decrease in Vibrant concentration in any sample, suggesting there was nothing in my aquarium water the reacted with Vibrant.

TW=tank water; Ulva Effluent=Ulva culture water; GAC effluent=water exiting GAC reactor; IO=Instant Ocean from storage bucket.

Vibrant in Aquarium Water with Aquarium Solid Samples

The above experiment was repeated with aquarium water alone (control), with 2 mL of clean, washed sand, 2 mL gently rinsed aquarium sand or a 2x6 cm piece of Ulva. Only samples containing sand from the aquarium and Ulva showed a reduction in Vibrant concentration. Presumably, these solids adsorbed the polyquat but not aquarium water alone.

How Much Polyquat Can Aquarium Sand Adsorb?

The above experiment was repeated with five concentrations of Vibrant in glass Erlenmeyer flasks containing 2 mL of gently rinsed aquarium sand in 50 mL aquarium water each. For every concentration of Vibrant, about the same amount was absorbed, suggesting a limit to how much polyquat the sand sample adsorb. The 50 a.u. reduction corresponds to about a loss of a 1.5X recommended dose.

Adsorption Of Vibrant By Mixed Algae Cultures

Four mixed algae cultures (see photos) that were being disposed were treated with 5X the recommended dose of Vibrant and the concentration monitored.

Several days later, the same cultures were treated again with 5X the recommended dose. Both concentration trends are plotted below. As with the sand, there seems to be a limit to how much polyquat can be adsorbed. In two, maybe three of four cultures, the polyquat concentration stops declining.

I am looking at a couple more aspects of Vibrant and if the data is interesting I will dump it here.

Dan

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting experiment!