Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

Randy Holmes-Farley

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But not on a forum. Hence my not knowing who's who and why one should get more belief than another. I'm sure with time that will come yet i'm still skeptical of what I read regardless who wrote it. Just how I'm wired. I'm most often going to do my best to do my own due diligence.

I could go through some of the folks here with the requisite knowledge to interpret analytical chemistry issues (like Christoph Denk and Craig Bingman), but I think that is beside the point. At this point, the response from UWC is of far more potential value.
 

LRT

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But not on a forum. Hence my not knowing who's who and why one should get more belief than another. I'm sure with time that will come yet i'm still skeptical of what I read regardless who wrote it. Just how I'm wired. I'm most often going to do my best to do my own due diligence.
Hence why i feel a research formatted type thread be posted and locked in experiment subforum.
This thread for perfect example. Taricha did the work and has shared the results. Skepticism is great but until work is done to refute his findings, its truly only all talk and heresay and takes away from the only work we have on the subject.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hence why i feel a research formatted type thread be posted and locked in experiment subforum.
This thread for perfect example. Taricha did the work and has shared the results. Skepticism is great but until work is done to refute his findings, its truly only all talk and heresay and takes away from the only work we have on the subject.

There's certainly nothing wrong with taricha copying his three experimental segments and putting them in the first three posts of a new thread there.

Don't know about locking it, but we could do that if it was desired by taricha.
 

GARRIGA

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I could go through some of the folks here with the requisite knowledge to interpret analytical chemistry issues (like Christoph Denk and Craig Bingman), but I think that is beside the point. At this point, the response from UWC is of far more potential value.
But in my defense. At the time I stated the peer review comment and what has brought so much attention. I didn't know who was who. To some extent. Still don't. Most importantly, I have no dog in this fight or bone to pick or as I like to summarize, no bone in this fight. Was merely commenting on what I thought was the prerequisite to actually do something about it. Just a discussion on a forum isn't going to accomplish what many think will happen which is to inform the public. Filing a claim with the EPA likely the best path now that I've been schooled on what a peer review encompasses. Would that not be the ultimate value?
 

LRT

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There's certainly nothing wrong with taricha copying his three experimental segments and putting them in the first three posts of a new thread there.

Don't know about locking it, but we could do that if it was desired by taricha.
For sure. May be a reason he put it here and its absoloutely Tarichas decision.
I was just thinking in general. Ive seen a thread format here i believe it has maybe an overview or article section. I feel research and charted work could be posted there and then the discussion side of it be left for debate. That way the work is preserved and not lost through all the debate and skepticism.
 

GARRIGA

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Hence why i feel a research formatted type thread be posted and locked in experiment subforum.
This thread for perfect example. Taricha did the work and has shared the results. Skepticism is great but until work is done to refute his findings, its truly only all talk and heresay and takes away from the only work we have on the subject.
Why not as a sticky in the main forum? Wouldn't that get the most exposure? I would eliminate all the comments. Just list out the findings and those qualified to challenge or confirm it. Make it into an article. Make it searchable. I for one rarely read 16 pages of something I just found cluttered with comments. Prefer if there was a summary at the start with a conclusion then all the findings underneath for my digestion.
 

LRT

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Why not as a sticky in the main forum? Wouldn't that get the most exposure? I would eliminate all the comments. Just list out the findings and those qualified to challenge or confirm it. Make it into an article. Make it searchable. I for one rarely read 16 pages of something I just found cluttered with comments. Prefer if there was a summary at the start with a conclusion then all the findings underneath for my digestion.
I would absoloutely love to see that.
Id even get more involved in the subforum personally. Its just too easy for some to come into these threads and completely derail and control narrative until fits ones own agenda.
Yes something that summarizes and preserves the work with a discussion section. And then I want to see actual work presented to refute others work.
 

Eagle_Steve

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Thinking outload here, as I am in now way a scientist. Electrical engineer, yes. Chemist, no lol.

Could vibrant not be tested using plants or macro algae? Doing this in a controlled environment, as below. Just an example, but I hope you see what I am getting at.

Tank 1: Macro with only SW and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 2: Macro with X brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 3: Macro with Y brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 4: Macro with Z brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 5: Macro with Vibrant and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 6: Macro with AlageFix and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.

All tanks use same light and same make up water from same container to start. Ammonia could be substituted for NO3 or PO4 via food grade mixes.

Again, this is thinking out loud, but would this not show if it is an algaecide? I know AlgaeFix will kill numerous forms of macro, so just a thought.

I wonder if one could also use little neck clams to test it. I keep them alive in my sump with no issues and use them for fish food. Could one not set a tank up and see if it kills them right out?

As stated before, just thinking out loud here lol.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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But in my defense. At the time I stated the peer review comment and what has brought so much attention. I didn't know who was who. To some extent. Still don't. Most importantly, I have no dog in this fight or bone to pick or as I like to summarize, no bone in this fight. Was merely commenting on what I thought was the prerequisite to actually do something about it. Just a discussion on a forum isn't going to accomplish what many think will happen which is to inform the public. Filing a claim with the EPA likely the best path now that I've been schooled on what a peer review encompasses. Would that not be the ultimate value?

No problem. It's hard in a forum where many folks go by nicknames to know who folks really are. I expect many of the folks posting are scientists of various sorts, based on knowledgeable responses, but I do not know them.

I personally would do nothing until UWC responds.
 

rtparty

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Other than Randy, I have no clue who the scientist are. How would I know that? How do I differentiate one from any other just posting their views? No offense to those who are but it's a reef forum. Not the science department at a university. Over time I'm sure that will become more apparent but no one joining this or any other forum knows all the background. To expect that from them is unreasonable. BTW, I normally just read the posts. I don't try to see who posted it unless I feel a reply is needed. Based on what I read I can often determine if what I read was worth absorbing. Much I just ignore because it might go against what I've experienced. It's the web. Can't take everything literally as being correct.

As for just accepting what another says just because of their credentials doesn't apply with my past experiences. Much of what was once fact is today proven to be wrong. Although I would weight their response greate than another's of lesser credentials yet I'll go verify it myself. Although on a public forum it's impossible to veridy who's credentials are less. This is important. I never just take another's word . Just who I am and how I've been trained in my chosen career as well as life experiences. Verify and confirm, always.

What I can speak to is your point about nullifying contracts which is my point about having verification that the vendor has been lied to. The latter being very difficult and could end up taking years to resolve in the courts. Vendor can't just call up the manufacturer and void their agreement because it was posted on a forum. Doesn't work that way. Could however discuss with the manufacturer that issue being observed and ask for a remedy both can accept. that's reality based on my past experiences.

Well, we all know who Randy is and Randy quoted the other scientists and even gave some of their credentials...

I can understand someone not knowing who everyone is. That is a fair point. It only takes 10 minutes reading this thread though and you can figure out the prominent voices to listen to. Taricha, Randy, Craig, couple others...taricha alone has done a enough work on other topics to trust up front. The major dino tests and experiments tend to be led by taricha.

Just some background info for all
 

rtparty

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i get your point,but i also don't think this message will get out in the open...the last few days on social media platforms, someone will post i have bubble algea or GHA and most posts that follow state to use Vibrant..

for instance, when tropic marin recently had their issue there was a number of threads here at R2R about it, but it also was all over the social medias ...and looked what happened.

until its get out there and not only this site, it will be a minority...

The AskBRS group is starting to fill up with Vibrant discussion. It will take weeks for it to catch but it will catch. BRS knows about this thread. I would be shocked if we didn't see a live on it at some point
 

GARRIGA

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No problem. It's hard in a forum where many folks go by nicknames to know who folks really are. I expect many of the folks posting are scientists of various sorts, based on knowledgeable responses, but I do not know them.

I personally would do nothing until UWC responds.
Shouldn't there be a time limit on that response? I'm assuming they've been notified of this thread versus assuming they are aware of it. Would be an injustice to them if they weren't aware although I find it hard to believe they aren't. Prudent for companies in the social media world to search themselves out.
 
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LRT

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Thinking outload here, as I am in now way a scientist. Electrical engineer, yes. Chemist, no lol.

Could vibrant not be tested using plants or macro algae? Doing this in a controlled environment, as below. Just an example, but I hope you see what I am getting at.

Tank 1: Macro with only SW and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 2: Macro with X brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 3: Macro with Y brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 4: Macro with Z brand of bacteria and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 5: Macro with Vibrant and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.
Tank 6: Macro with AlageFix and a small amount of ammonia to feed the macro.

All tanks use same light and same make up water from same container to start. Ammonia could be substituted for NO3 or PO4 via food grade mixes.

Again, this is thinking out loud, but would this not show if it is an algaecide? I know AlgaeFix will kill numerous forms of macro, so just a thought.

I wonder if one could also use little neck clams to test it. I keep them alive in my sump with no issues and use them for fish food. Could one not set a tank up and see if it kills them right out?

As stated before, just thinking out loud here lol.
I've been considering something like this as well. If I didn't love my live rock so much im more than tempted to see what happens if I throw one of my clam covered rocks in with some Vibrant. No way I'm willing to sacrifice my clam rocks though! Not to mention wife would probably have a heart attack considering im sure all the little baby clams have names now hahaha dang!
 

GARRIGA

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Well, we all know who Randy is and Randy quoted the other scientists and even gave some of their credentials...

I can understand someone not knowing who everyone is. That is a fair point. It only takes 10 minutes reading this thread though and you can figure out the prominent voices to listen to. Taricha, Randy, Craig, couple others...taricha alone has done a enough work on other topics to trust up front. The major dino tests and experiments tend to be led by taricha.

Just some background info for all
There is still another consideration. Can't just accept what another says because of their credentials. Why often there are disputes to what is supposedly known and why often a group comes to a consensus. At least when it comes to finance. There must be a consensus as to how rules are followed. Never is one authority given such latitude as to accept their word being final and definitive. Finance being my profession past 30 plus years. What i have to fall back on.

Not taking anything away from anyone. I will perform my own due diligence and when unable such as something as complex as chemistry then I keep an open mind until something definitive such as the EPA slapping a label on this product. Until then, I accept what I'm reading because there is strong reason to believe that this is accurate as to the claims of Vibrant containing a pesticide and I do not have the means nor know how to dispute it but were I able then rest assured I would. I just don't accept what others claim. Never have. Never will. I question everything, within reason.

I'm not a bad guy. I'm just overly skeptical based on my own experiences. :)
 

Eagle_Steve

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I've been considering something like this as well. If I didn't love my live rock so much im more than tempted to see what happens if I throw one of my clam covered rocks in with some Vibrant. No way I'm willing to sacrifice my clam rocks though! Not to mention wife would probably have a heart attack considering im sure all the little baby clams have names now hahaha dang!
I am just wondering if it would actually be a valid way to test.

I have a 7' macro tank and 800 gallon macro tub that gets trimmed all of the time. So macro is not an issue for me to come by. Nor is the GHA that grows on the walls/glass/sump of both setups.

Again, just a thought at how one could test and compare the effects on the test algae. I would think this would be a pretty simple test, provided it is a valid way to compare the products.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Shouldn't there be a time limit on that response? I'm assuming they've been notified of this thread versus assuming they are aware of it.

Yes. But the official account has not been on since my last communication with them by PM requesting a response. Let's just give them time. It is a complex issue to respond to an may require some investigation on their part.
 

GARRIGA

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Yes. But the official account has not been on since my last communication with them by PM requesting a response. Let's just give them time. It is a complex issue to respond to an may require some investigation on their part.
If I wanted to remain unaware of something then I'd definitely would not respond. Just 2 useless cents.

Since this has been posted on BRS FB or sub forum (don't recall exactly) from what I've gathered then perhaps BRS will reach out to UWC. I'd think it would be in their best interest to clarify any misunderstanding assuming those misunderstandings did exist. Otherwise, as another pointed out, lawyers may have put duct tape on their key boards. I know from where I've worked. that's exactly what our legal teams would demand and have someone in public relations handle it going forward. Not sure UWC is large enough to have a public relations team and with the power of social media often how something is said more important than what is said. Wished I could afford one. My peer review may have met less resistance. :rolleyes:
 

LRT

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If I wanted to remain unaware of something then I'd definitely would not respond. Just 2 useless cents.

Since this has been posted on BRS FB or sub forum (don't recall exactly) from what I've gathered then perhaps BRS will reach out to UWC. I'd think it would be in their best interest to clarify any misunderstanding assuming those misunderstandings did exist. Otherwise, as another pointed out, lawyers may have put duct tape on their key boards. I know from where I've worked. that's exactly what our legal teams would demand and have someone in public relations handle it going forward. Not sure UWC is large enough to have a public relations team and with the power of social media often how something is said more important than what is said. Wished I could afford one. My peer review may have met less resistance. :rolleyes:
I think Randy is right. We need Vibrant response. I cant speak for all but feel there is a vast majority of folks following that are hoping there is a reasonable response with data and clarification that explains whats been found here. And if so our peers are able to review and accept that.
 

rtparty

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I think Randy is right. We need Vibrant response. I cant speak for all but feel there is a vast majority of folks following that are hoping there is a reasonable response with data and clarification that explains whats been found here. And if so our peers are able to review and accept that.

I can't imagine any scenario where UWC could provide an answer that disputes what has been found here. For years they couldn't provide any scientific literature or answers on anything. They are somehow the only humans on Earth to develop a brand new bacteria that only eats algae and magically, that bacteria can never be found in multiple bottles when tested.

UWC has a few choices in my opinion.

1) Be standup. Confess to everything and take the cards they're dealt after. Likely losing their business in the end.

2) Don't confirm or deny the findings but change the label to better represent their product. (This confirms the findings here but they don't publicly issue a statement.)

3) Continue down their path of false advertisement and misrepresentation. This likely ends up poorly for them as well.
 

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