Trying to diagnose purple tang

[Ectogamut]

Hey all, here's a little backstory:

I have a 40g qt setup that I've been treating while I finish building my 180g.

I began treatment with Metroplex + Focus as well as Prazipro. After the prazi dose I had a bacterial bloom so I added an air stone and sponge filter to the existing mp10.

I think the prazi lowered the oxygen in the tank and triggered a stress event, causing ich (possibly velvet) to present itself shortly after, so I did a 90% water change and started Copper Power in accordance with @Humblefish protocol.

After about 10 days at 2.5 (using Hanna) there was no sign of ich, but it appeared as though something strange was happening. Both the purple and powder blue were flashing quite a bit, but still eating voraciously.

I did a FW dip with no flukes presenting, so now I'm at a loss. Is the copper melting the skin off because it's too much? Or is this a bacterial infection? The picture may appear to be velvet, but my understanding is that that moves very quickly and no fish has been swimming in the power head. Any assistance would be appreciated!

 

[Ectogamut]

The first pic may not be the best representation since there was film on the glass there.

 

[Mr Cypher]

yo I could be wrong but that looks like velvet to me Jay or vett guy could weigh im but that dusting of spots don't know if you are running copper but I would get on it asap

 

[Ectogamut]

Man, I know it looks like velvet, but that would be very surprising to me since I've been at 2.5ppm copper power for nearly 2 weeks now. I'm not sure the pic depicts it very well, but it looks more like pieces of skin or slime coat missing.

 

[Mr Cypher]

dang crazy, do you have a short vid? how's the breathing?

 

[Mr Cypher]

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Ectogamut]

dang crazy, do you have a short vid? how's the breathing?

I don't, unfortunately. But his breathing appears pretty rapid. He seems slightly lethargic at this point, mostly sticking to an area near the cleaning wrasse "station" or in the PVC. His appetite has dwindled a bit and at this point he's kind of just pecking at the food.

 

[vetteguy53081]

It’s Amyloodinium and needs quick treatment using coppersafe in a quarantine setting at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 for a full 30 days at 80 degrees
The display tank will need to remain fishless for 45-60 days (no need to increase temperature) and assure ammonia level in quarantine does not become elevated
Increase oxygen with air stone during treatment

 

[MnFish1]

1. Copper can cause lesions on tangs (that IMHO do not like your pictures).
2. You need to verify that your copper levels are 2.5 'all the time' - meaning - I would test twice/day. BTW - part of the problem (I do not know the Humblefish protocol by memory - but my recollection is that the copper is increased rather slowly - are you saying you eventually got to 2.5 - or you treated with copper at lower doses for a couple days before.
3. I would rapidly ensure that your copper levels are 2.5 (and stay there) - as rapid breathing and that much parasite load needs immediate action IMHO.
4. Its a very nice fish - and I hope he does ok.

PS - I still have suspicion (probably incorrect). that part of this is damage from copper on a tang - though there is clearly a parasite. Hope this helps - copper is still the way to go - perhaps @Jay Hemdal will weigh in as well.

 

[Ectogamut]

1. Copper can cause lesions on tangs (that IMHO do not like your pictures).
2. You need to verify that your copper levels are 2.5 'all the time' - meaning - I would test twice/day. BTW - part of the problem (I do not know the Humblefish protocol by memory - but my recollection is that the copper is increased rather slowly - are you saying you eventually got to 2.5 - or you treated with copper at lower doses for a couple days before.
3. I would rapidly ensure that your copper levels are 2.5 (and stay there) - as rapid breathing and that much parasite load needs immediate action IMHO.
4. Its a very nice fish - and I hope he does ok.

PS - I still have suspicion (probably incorrect). that part of this is damage from copper on a tang - though there is clearly a parasite. Hope this helps - copper is still the way to go - perhaps @Jay Hemdal will weigh in as well.

Sorry, I know it's a lot of information to pore through. So yes, I have maintained my copper level at or near 2.5 since May 1st, slowly ramping up to that.

Each day I would top off with fresh RODI water, wait, test with the Hanna checker and adjust the copper power to maintain 2.5, usually 2-3ml a day on average.

If this is a velvet infection, I certainly have a few questions. Like, why is there no light sensitivity? Why isn't he swimming into the power head? Why nothing on the fins? I really want to improve my ability to diagnose ailment, but all my research on velvet tells me that this isn't what the fish has.

 

[Ectogamut]

Just took this a few minutes ago. Fortunately, he's still eating fairly well. He's certainly hardy! But I would love to see him recover from this, whatever it is.

 

[Ectogamut]

Here's a short video, but I'm not sure if it'll give any insight.

 

[Ectogamut]

Here's one more vid with perhaps a little more detail.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey all, here's a little backstory:

I have a 40g qt setup that I've been treating while I finish building my 180g.

I began treatment with Metroplex + Focus as well as Prazipro. After the prazi dose I had a bacterial bloom so I added an air stone and sponge filter to the existing mp10.

I think the prazi lowered the oxygen in the tank and triggered a stress event, causing ich (possibly velvet) to present itself shortly after, so I did a 90% water change and started Copper Power in accordance with @Humblefish protocol.

After about 10 days at 2.5 (using Hanna) there was no sign of ich, but it appeared as though something strange was happening. Both the purple and powder blue were flashing quite a bit, but still eating voraciously.

I did a FW dip with no flukes presenting, so now I'm at a loss. Is the copper melting the skin off because it's too much? Or is this a bacterial infection? The picture may appear to be velvet, but my understanding is that that moves very quickly and no fish has been swimming in the power head. Any assistance would be appreciated!

Fish can develop what I call "idiopathic mucus plugs" - that is, mucus spots for no apparent reason. Those spots are usually much larger than this, and fewer in number. Copper use seems to be a common variable with this mucus production though....

Looking at the picture, it sure looks like Amyloodinium/velvet. However, when you see velvet spots this heavy, the disease is already far advanced and you would be seeing rapid breathing and not eating as well. Light sensitivity and swimming into water currents are NOT universal symptoms for velvet. The only true symptom is rapid breathing, greater than 140 to 150 gill beats per minute. I could not get a gill rate from the video, just not clear enough. You can try though - count the number of gill beats in 15 seconds and multiply by 4 to get the one minute rate.

Keep the copper ramped up though - I know Humblefish advocates for a slow ramp up of copper, but when using Copper Power or Coppersafe, that is a mistake. The only real worry is misdosing....so I tell folks to add partial doses over 24 hours and edge up to a full dose. The risk with a slow ramp up is that copper does not control velvet well, not until it hits about 72 hours beyond the date that the full dose was reached. Raising it slowly just allows the disease to get the upper hand. I put fish straight into coppersafe all the time with zero issues.

Jay

 

[Ectogamut]

Fish can develop what I call "idiopathic mucus plugs" - that is, mucus spots for no apparent reason. Those spots are usually much larger than this, and fewer in number. Copper use seems to be a common variable with this mucus production though....

Looking at the picture, it sure looks like Amyloodinium/velvet. However, when you see velvet spots this heavy, the disease is already far advanced and you would be seeing rapid breathing and not eating as well. Light sensitivity and swimming into water currents are NOT universal symptoms for velvet. The only true symptom is rapid breathing, greater than 140 to 150 gill beats per minute. I could not get a gill rate from the video, just not clear enough. You can try though - count the number of gill beats in 15 seconds and multiply by 4 to get the one minute rate.

Keep the copper ramped up though - I know Humblefish advocates for a slow ramp up of copper, but when using Copper Power or Coppersafe, that is a mistake. The only real worry is misdosing....so I tell folks to add partial doses over 24 hours and edge up to a full dose. The risk with a slow ramp up is that copper does not control velvet well, not until it hits about 72 hours beyond the date that the full dose was reached. Raising it slowly just allows the disease to get the upper hand. I put fish straight into coppersafe all the time with zero issues.

Jay

Hey Jay, thanks for the reply. Take a look at this pic and tell me what you think. To me it looks like the skin or slime coat is shredded. I'm just not seeing the "dusting" indicative of velvet, nor am I seeing the other symptoms besides the fast gilling. Not to mention this would have to be a super strain to be able to tolerate 2.5ppm copper for nearly two weeks, right?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay, thanks for the reply. Take a look at this pic and tell me what you think. To me it looks like the skin or slime coat is shredded. I'm just not seeing the "dusting" indicative of velvet, nor am I seeing the other symptoms besides the fast gilling. Not to mention this would have to be a super strain to be able to tolerate 2.5ppm copper for nearly two weeks, right?

It still looks like a protozoan. The cleaner wrasse was in another shot cleaning it - but that isn’t always a sign of parasites because they feed on mucus as well.
Very often, diseases can’t be identified from gross visible symptoms. If I had this fish I would catch it up and do a skin scrape and look at it under a microscope….but I understand few people have access to a scope.
Jay

 

[Ectogamut]

It still looks like a protozoan. The cleaner wrasse was in another shot cleaning it - but that isn’t always a sign of parasites because they feed on mucus as well.
Very often, diseases can’t be identified from gross visible symptoms. If I had this fish I would catch it up and do a skin scrape and look at it under a microscope….but I understand few people have access to a scope.
Jay

Thanks for the insights, Jay. If it is indeed protozoan, but not ich or velvet, is copper still the go to treatment or would something like Metroplex be helpful here? I've also considered Kanaplex, but I don't want to arbitrarily throw a bunch of meds in there. Thanks again for all the input!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Metroplex could be used, but I’ve just had better success with copper. I don’t see kanaplex as being indicated here….
Jay

 

[Ectogamut]

Metroplex could be used, but I’ve just had better success with copper. I don’t see kanaplex as being indicated here….
Jay

I went ahead and caught him to do another FW dip, just to make certain that it wasn't flukes. As predicted, the water was pristine after a full 5 minutes with me basting him.

I went ahead and put him in this acclimation box afterward since he seemed disoriented after the dip and took an opportunity to shoot this closer video under the light. Please give me your analysis and expertise! I wish I could do a skin scrape but I wouldn't even know what to look for under the scope! All I have is a cheap one anyway.