Top ten reasons you should NOT dose a new cycling tank to 2 ppm ammonia

[brandon429]

question for skeptics/honest contributors

what are some standout benefits of being able to cycle any reef tank with an exacting start date, vs an open ended cycle which is the old school method? are there any you can think of?

to get the brain cells aligned for building up vs tearing down, I'll name one:


-if you get invited (or buy your way in) to a reef convention and are expected to bring a fully running reef to review, or sell from, you want the updated cycling science vs the kind that leaves you in the parking lot 30-90 days awaiting three part parameter compliance on api. if you do 2 ppm cycling using raw ammonia and api, your drop dates will happen after the convention has packed up and moved away and you'll be ready right when the monster truck show is beginning for the space that was a prior reef convention hall.

sellers use different cycling rules than buyers do. the training is polar opposite for a reason.


what are some other times that practical home aquarists might benefit from knowing when their upcoming cycle will be completed, before its even assembled?

 

[muzikalmatt]

 

[brandon429]

that boosted us up, measurably, thanks for the thoughtful input

this is exactly how substitutes feel in a room of eighth graders, 100% certain.

 

[nereefpat]

-if you get invited (or buy your way in) to a reef convention and are expected to bring a fully running reef to review, or sell from, you want the updated cycling science vs the kind that leaves you in the parking lot 30-90 days awaiting three part parameter compliance on api. if you do 2 ppm cycling using raw ammonia and api, your drop dates will happen after the convention has packed up and moved away and you'll be ready right when the monster truck show is beginning for the space that was a prior reef convention hall.

You think that tanks at a reef convention get cycled? Those tanks are just existing ones that are moved in, rock and filtration and all, from a previous spot.

 

[polyppal]

Everyone here doesn't listen to you because you pick and chose which posts to present to us. I have personally seen you ignore obvious issues because it didn't align with your beliefs. Unless you want to put up and show some demonstrations of what you are trying to tell us, I have no clue what fight you are even fighting anymore because it's always a bunch of incoherent rambling. Also speaking like you are the authority of reef2reef is just weird when you literally own a fish bowl. I appreciate your passion but its being lost in the chaos.

 

[brandon429]

and at aquashella I saw about ten dry start demos


did they wait for the 2 ppm?

and: for the love of Pete thank you for posting on point. The way what you mentioned ties into my post #1 is that's specifically a form of tank setup that doesn't require proofing

-where's my youtube videos from Bottle bac sellers that outline this non-need for their product? any macna talk videos on pure skip cycling? we'd covered there are 100+ videos available for paid bottle bac cycles with 2 ppm doses, those are 100% of the available training material for cycling.

only insiders know what you know/

so in your history of interacting with forums and new aquarists, when we buy live rocks at petco and move them home, exactly that same method, what makes those newbs think you have to dose the check level ammonia and in 98% of cases they leave with bottle bac (meant for dry rock cycles)

we are discussing in this example times we simply do not verify a cycle, when its a live rock skip cycle transfer.

surely you wouldn't doubt I can find several links that show new cyclers being told to verify their live rocks brought home from the pet store?

buyers use different rules than sellers, heart of my whole thread.

again, thank you for posting material we can review and detail. ok now do the meme

 

[brandon429]

Garriga specifically did not mention that instance in his laments on my cycling approach. he said specifically nitrite and nitrate and ammonia must be in compliance, I like to see where 1 of the 4 known cycling methods are delineated.


found one and he talks about it pretty well


new means are coming into the hobby. I put in "skip reef tank cycle" into youtube and found this one. he talks about stumbling onto the process vs being taught the option.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

and at aquashella I saw about ten dry start demos


did they wait for the 2 ppm?

and: for the love of Pete thank you for posting on point. The way what you mentioned ties into my post #1 is that's specifically a form of tank setup that doesn't require proofing

so in your history of interacting with forums and new aquarists, when we buy live rocks at petco and move them home, exactly that same method, what makes those newbs think you have to dose the check level ammonia and in 98% of cases they leave with bottle bac (meant for dry rock cycles)

we are discussing in this example times we simply do not verify a cycle, when its a live rock skip cycle transfer.

surely you wouldn't doubt I can find 5-15 post links that show new cyclers being told to verify their live rocks brought home from the pet store?

buyers use different rules than sellers, heart of my whole thread.

again, thank you for posting material we can review and detail. ok now do the meme

Now what happens if they don't break those tanks down? If they just keep corals and fish in them and just start feeding them like normal. What do you think will happen after that? There's a lot that can happen and will happen.

 

[Rhino]

I implore you to make the investment to make your ramblings more palatable.

 

[GARRIGA]

You think that tanks at a reef convention get cycled? Those tanks are just existing ones that are moved in, rock and filtration and all, from a previous spot.

Curious if they bring their own water as well or RODI supplied on site and mixed there. At least for the big shows where vendors come from long travels.

 

[brandon429]

Homebrood

thank you for posting on topic

i see where the implication is heading/an expiry date cycle

of course it'd just be me claiming they can't expire, and you will hint they can, so can we get a link or a study showing that happening in a reef tank, anywhere, one time will do?

post a cycle that was able to carry bioload, then became unable. You have to admit that if you can't find that expression event occurring online among millions of logged reef tank posts across 50 forums, including international ones you can use google translator to navigate, you might be dealing in hypotheticals that aren't real.

I hawked vase reefs all over this planet in 2001 onward, international reefing via translator is amazing data sourcing. Finland has forums you can parse, Germany, France has really good ones, find me the elusive expired cycle anywhere on this planet and Ill agree it can happen in a reef convention skip cycle. I'll also ask what's the expiry date for the cycle you're hinting at: runs for ten days but not eleven?

why didn't that EVER happen here:

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

This is a testless cycling thread, we don't want ammonia testing here for any job if possible, because we are teaching reefers/readers that moving live rocks system to system does not restart the cycle: many in our community don't understand that rule and feel that any tank being setup simply...

www.reef2reef.com

that's a direct study link using the exact means of skip cycling you're covering above. Did any expire? send them a message, any entrant.

Rhino, you expended effort for those laughs good one.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Homebrood

thank you for posting on topic

i see where the implication is heading/an expiry date cycle

of course it'd just be me claiming they can't expire, and you will hint they can, so can we get a link or a study showing that happening in a reef tank, anywhere, one time will do?


Rhino, you expended effort for those laughs good one.

I'm not hinting at anything. The fact that you don't know what will happen and are requiring me to provide a research paper on what will happen is all we needed to see here.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Garriga specifically did not mention that instance in his laments on my cycling approach. he said specifically nitrite and nitrate and ammonia must be in compliance, I like to see where 1 of the 4 known cycling methods are delineated.

and now I step out of the shadows.

Here is the post by @GARRIGA

My goal to test nitrite is because Dr Tim pointed out how that’s more likely to be a first indicator that something has gone wrong than ammonia. Who am I to question him. Plus when I cycle ammonia is quickly converted and why I depend on nitrite before adding more ammonia.

As nitrates being zero. Problem with hobby grade testing is lack of accuracy and unless we test every minute than it’s possible that all three major nutrients might at some point be present yet not when we tested. I however have never gotten zero nitrates. My readings have always shown something. My goal is to keep it under 5 ppm yet don’t get alarmed if it rises above 20 ppm.

I use API. Know it’s not as accurate as Hanna but I’m not looking for precision. I’m often looking for presence or absence or extremes. Day I add sticks then I’ll get Hanna but only for phosphates which I normally keep under 0.25 ppm which is likely alarming to most and I don’t worry because I don’t have GHA or other nastiest. Just too much base algae the type African cichlids love and only because I ran my lights too intense for too long. Crazy experiment gone wrong yet easily fixable.

Hobby might want to progress to having a more natural approach vs constant tinkering and adding new tools without grasping the ramifications of what one extreme might cause. Such as overzealous GFO use vs bacteria encouraged to do what they do. Nature found a way billions of years ago. Why we keep trying to improve on her is beyond my scope.

I do not interpret this as anything being in compliance. I take it as one is checking to see the process as a whole. @GARRIGA explicitly stated that nitrate has never been zero. Wouldn't a full cycle in most peoples book mean this has to be at 0? If ammonia is 0, then it got converted to nitrites. If nitrites are 0, then it got converted to Nitrates. If so one would assume a full cycle is Nitrates at 0. That is the complete nitrogen cycle, is it not? Basically, it all ends with nitrogen gas escaping the tank, then begins again when fish poo or you feed them.

It was also explicitly stated that nitrite is being used to gauge ammonia consumption, not in those exact words, but you get my drift.

Another person on this forum that has done SW setups for a long time, I am not dragging them into this, also does the same thing in regards to using nitrite to see how things are progressing.

I also do the same thing in tanks I setup, in regards to testing nitrite to see how things are coming along.

What I am getting at here, is that some things work for others just fine. They do not need to be discredited, thrown out the window or be re-quoted without a quote to that exact comment. This then leads to misinformation being tossed around.

If you are wanting to debate a specific point of view, simply hit the quote button for that comment and begin the debate.

In all reality, it is very simple. there are many ways to skin a cat, so lets hear those ways and not discredit those ways that all end up at the same result.

Also, I can provide tons of data on dry rock starts and success with them using my method. This also includes heavy stocking of delicate nems and large fish. Do I have the time for it, I do not. I just know for me, my way works and. I will keep doing it my way until it does not work.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

and now I step out of the shadows.

Here is the post by @GARRIGA



I do not interpret this as anything being in compliance. I take it as one is checking to see the process as a whole. @GARRIGA explicitly stated that nitrate has never been zero. Wouldn't a full cycle in most peoples book mean this has to be at 0? If ammonia is 0, then it got converted to nitrites. If nitrites are 0, then it got converted to Nitrates. If so one would assume a full cycle is Nitrates at 0. That is the complete nitrogen cycle, is it not? Basically, it all ends with nitrogen gas escaping the tank, then begins again when fish poo or you feed them.

It was also explicitly stated that nitrite is being used to gauge ammonia consumption, not in those exact words, but you get my drift.

Another person on this forum that has done SW setups for a long time, I am not dragging them into this, also does the same thing in regards to using nitrite to see how things are progressing.

I also do the same thing in tanks I setup, in regards to testing nitrite to see how things are coming along.

What I am getting at here, is that some things work for others just fine. They do not need to be discredited, thrown out the window or be re-quoted without a quote to that exact comment. This then leads to misinformation being tossed around.

If you are wanting to debate a specific point of view, simply hit the quote button for that comment and begin the debate.

In all reality, it is very simple. there are many ways to skin a cat, so lets hear those ways and not discredit those ways that all end up at the same result.

Also, I can provide tons of data on dry rock starts and success with them using my method. This also includes heavy stocking of delicate nems and large fish. Do I have the time for it, I do not. I just know for me, my way works and. I will keep doing it my way until it does not work.

Hogwash!

 

[brandon429]

well said Steve. agreed that's a point to improve upon. I can't really quote him though bc I asked for legit exampling and felt I was getting trolled out the door with no links, being specific in exchanges during debates also is handy when both parties apply that process.

*missing out on someone's unique 40 year experience is a risk though in discounting anything not backed by links or recent practice, Ill need to find the happy medium. You represented his experiences very well I thought.

 

[brandon429]

@HomebroodExotics

Im legit curious if you think my link above is a direct representation of what convention cycles do

or were you meaning the dry start ones...either way why didn't our cycles expire above? its a legit study question in my opinion and thank you both for the posts.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

@HomebroodExotics

Im legit curious if you think my link above is a direct representation of what convention cycles do

or were you meaning the dry start ones...either way why didn't our cycles expire above? its a legit study question in my opinion and thank you both for the posts.

I’m not saying it isnt possible to keep a tank going by using existing rock. Pretty much everyone knows it is. There’s just a lot more variables then you like to pretend exist. And when one of those variables comes up it never makes it into your cute little thread.

 

[DopamineKata]

This is the power of the ignore button, it makes reef2reef unique among forums

What a great idea! You're literally the first hostile person I've come across on reef2reef nice to know I can make you go poof.

 

[GARRIGA]

Garriga specifically did not mention that instance in his laments on my cycling approach. he said specifically nitrite and nitrate and ammonia must be in compliance, I like to see where 1 of the 4 known cycling methods are delineated.


found one and he talks about it pretty well


new means are coming into the hobby. I put in "skip reef tank cycle" into youtube and found this one. he talks about stumbling onto the process vs being taught the option.

Technically speaking. He seeded the tank with rock and sand that had been previously cycled. If the subject is about skipping the need for ammonia or bacterial products on a tank who’s filtration has already been cycled and bacterial colonies established then yes you can skip the cycle because that already happened. At some point. There was a cycle.

If one thinks that just adding rocks and bacteria means you are cycled then that’s not been my experience. Perhaps if you dose 10x the required amount or some other figure because as I understand it the purpose of introducing an ammonia source be it fish waste, decaying shrimp or ammonium chloride is to help grow that bacterial colony large enough to sustain enough life and keep it from being poisoned by their own waste.

 

[brandon429]

I thought your question sounded insincere and accusatory but still shrouded as a question, nice to meet you. There's friendlier ways to start and then not circle back all victim carded, wanna try again/ a do-over?

am truly interested in knowing what specific questions you have based on what you've read in the matter.

simply let me know in a normal way like you'd speak to a cashier at the store any detail of cycling you'd like me to review.