The Secret of Higher pH

[Queen City Corals]

Several points...

1. Not sure how pH stability being natural or desirable is dogma. As one of the most prolific reef chemistry writers, I'd have to think that if I have stated things hundreds of times, one cannot really say that "dogma" is the opposite of what I claim.

I have literally posted hundreds of times over many years in articles and threads exactly the opposite: the size of the swing doesn't concern me, it's the low pH end of things that concerns me.

"With that all said, however, I do not believe that the actual change in pH each day is particularly important. I won’t go into the reasoning behind this claim here, other than stating that it is my opinion, based on my understanding of how most organisms control their internal pH, but I do not believe that diurnal pH changes that stay within the range of pH 7.8 to 8.5 are particularly stressful to most reef organisms. "

pH and the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

by Randy Holmes-Farley For many aquarists, pH is not something that they have much experience with aside from their aquarium. For many, pH is almost a black box measurement: something to be considered, but whose physical meaning makes little sense to them. This article will Read more here...

www.reefedition.com

2. The natural swing in the ocean has also been stated by me hundreds of times:

pH
The pH of seawater is typically stated to be 8.2 ± 0.1, but it can vary as photosynthesis consumes carbon dioxide locally and as respiration produces it. It also varies by latitude and is often lower where there is upwelling. It is also a function of depth for a variety of reasons, including photosynthesis near the surface, decomposition of organics in the mid-depths (dropping pH to as low as 7.5 by 1000 meters), and dissolution of calcium carbonate in very deep water (raising the pH back up to around 8). In closed lagoons, the pH can cycle from day to night just as in a reef aquarium, rising several tenths of a pH unit during the day. In special circumstances, seawater can be much lower in pH. Seawater in mangroves where highly reducing sediments are present can reduce the pH to below 7.0. In the open ocean, where there is a much larger volume of water containing buffers, the pH fluctuates little. As humans have added carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, more carbon dioxide has also been added to the oceans, with a consequent drop in pH. This is one of the impacts humans have had on the oceans that concerns ecologists in terms of its impact on calcifying organisms, especially on coral reefs but also on other systems involving such organisms as foraminiferans, which have calcareous skeletons and which are important links in many marine food webs.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php#3

3. The graph you posted above does show lower calcification at lower pH, doesn't it? Most data also does. That is the basis for my concern about pH going below 7.8

Hey Randy Holmes-Farley, I want to start off by saying thank you for immense amount of information that you have provided over the years, I know it has personally helped me to understand reef chemistry, and chemistry as a whole much better. l think what EMeyer is trying to say is what I have seen for a long time and that is the person who is 3,4, or even 5 steps removed from the person who actually has read your articles and through a crazy game of telephone has just heard that you need your pH to be 8.3 and your growth will suffer significantly if its not there. Unfortunately there is a large portion of the reefing community that only watches YouTube and gets all their reefing knowledge through Facebook posts and I can tell you first hand that what a lot of people believe is very antithetical to what you and others have shared over the years.

 

[trainbob]

Following

 

[trainbob]

All of the articles about PH seem to only concern coral if I only have fish should I be concerned about PH below 8

 

[thresher]

There are two competing principles.

1. Dosing alk during the day will stabilize alk more than dosing 24 /7 since it is used more during the day.
2. Dosing high pH additives at night will bring up the nightly pH low more than dosing during the day or 24/7.

Both have merit. Which is most important may vary by tank and how low the pH actually is.

I'd also add that soda ash is not the best additive for boosting pH. Hydroxide is, either by kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) or something like my ultra high pH two part using sodium hydroxide.

I've followed this logic and dose Kalk at night All for Reef during the day. My alk stability is great and my Ph goes from 8.3-8.0

 

[Queen City Corals]

All of the articles about PH seem to only concern coral if I only have fish should I be concerned about PH below 8

As long as the pH isn't below 7.2-7.5 you don't really need to worry about pH for a fish only tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All of the articles about PH seem to only concern coral if I only have fish should I be concerned about PH below 8

I do not think fish are particularly sensitive to pH within the range experienced by reef tanks.

 

[trainbob]

Okay thanks for the answer

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey Randy Holmes-Farley, I want to start off by saying thank you for immense amount of information that you have provided over the years, I know it has personally helped me to understand reef chemistry, and chemistry as a whole much better. l think what EMeyer is trying to say is what I have seen for a long time and that is the person who is 3,4, or even 5 steps removed from the person who actually has read your articles and through a crazy game of telephone has just heard that you need your pH to be 8.3 and your growth will suffer significantly if its not there. Unfortunately there is a large portion of the reefing community that only watches YouTube and gets all their reefing knowledge through Facebook posts and I can tell you first hand that what a lot of people believe is very antithetical to what you and others have shared over the years.

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying that there are folks with different perceived understanding of pH issues. I was primarily reacting to the word dogma being used on the claim pH is important, when in reality, it seems the opposite to me. In the the thread I linked above, that was recently written, I specifically started it with:

"It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish."

It seems to me I am the one challenging the dogma when I claim it can be important. Some folks are coming around, but it has been a long slow process to convince folks that higher pH does lead to faster hard coral growth (independent of whether the pH swings or not).

 

[ultimatemj]

Pushing growth has always brought me more maintenance (corralline on the glass, feeding/tuning as the uptake increases etc).

So...what if your target is bright colors, SLOW growth, and a healthy "bonsai"?

 

[hbash]

There are two competing principles.

1. Dosing alk during the day will stabilize alk more than dosing 24 /7 since it is used more during the day.
2. Dosing high pH additives at night will bring up the nightly pH low more than dosing during the day or 24/7.

Both have merit. Which is most important may vary by tank and how low the pH actually is.

I'd also add that soda ash is not the best additive for boosting pH. Hydroxide is, either by kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide) or something like my ultra high pH two part using sodium hydroxide.

Can you describe your ultra high pH two part using sodium hydroxide?

 

[ariellemermaid]

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying that there are folks with different perceived understanding of pH issues. I was primarily reacting to the word dogma being used on the claim pH is important, when in reality, it seems the opposite to me. In the the thread I linked above, that was recently written, I specifically started it with:

"It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish."

It seems to me I am the one challenging the dogma when I claim it can be important. Some folks are coming around, but it has been a long slow process to convince folks that higher pH does lead to faster hard coral growth (independent of whether the pH swings or not).

I’m not sure it really matters what the dogma is or who started it. I dived into this hobby and all of these issues a little over a year ago though and have to say, I agree with @Queen City Corals the current dogma I’ve seen is that growth is all about pH (with generally stable chemistry). I see people chasing pH, stressing about pH, and going to great lengths to increase it all over the place with almost zero arguments that pH is not important. Including a thread tonight where someone used a product that ended up spiking his alk above 20 and killed everything all to raise pH. When I hear the phrase “chasing numbers” again as a newcomer that has read extensively what people have advocated since I started this hobby, my impression is that people were referring to chemistry not pH. In other words don’t chase specific narrow chemistry numbers, just be stable, but do whatever it takes to get pH over 8. Just hoping my perspective being new to what everyone is saying now might be helpful to figuring out where people are currently at in terms of the dogma out there.

I found this article to be helpful food for thought overall. I don’t take any article as gospel but it furthers the discussion about what an optimal successful tank means.

I have seen a lot of discussion here about the ocean though and I have to ask, why again do we assume the ocean is the gold standard? It seems to me corals grow exceedingly slowly in the ocean and have poor coloration. Wild chickens for instance are small and tough while farm grown chickens are plump, meaty, and tender. Maybe a bad analogy, but compared to the ocean our tanks are small laboratory environments. Shouldn’t we focus more on the science and providing absolutely optimal conditions rather than assuming the ocean is the gold standard? You can do a lot under lab conditions you’d never see in the wild. Just asking .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you describe your ultra high pH two part using sodium hydroxide?

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

New DIY Two Part Recipes with Higher pH Boost

Here's a first crack at what may end up being multiple possible recipes for a DIY two part that either has a higher pH or can be made more concentrated than traditional two part recipes. This one has about twice the pH raising effect compared to a carbonate based two part, per unit of...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[RMS18]

Wish I had a lower ph issue... Instead I have a higher pH issue, up to 8.63 and I don't know what to do to get it down. I'll be posting a thread soon with background.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have seen a lot of discussion here about the ocean though and I have to ask, why again do we assume the ocean is the gold standard? It seems to me corals grow exceedingly slowly in the ocean and have poor coloration.

I do not make that assumption. It's safe to assume it is acceptable. it is not correct to assume it is optimal.

I’m not sure it really matters what the dogma is or who started it. I dived into this hobby and all of these issues a little over a year ago though and have to say, I agree with @Queen City Corals the current dogma I’ve seen is that growth is all about pH (with generally stable chemistry). I see people chasing pH, stressing about pH, and going to great lengths to increase it all over the place with almost zero arguments that pH is not important. Including a thread tonight where someone used a product that ended up spiking his alk above 20 and killed everything all to raise pH. When I hear the phrase “chasing numbers” again as a newcomer that has read extensively what people have advocated since I started this hobby, my impression is that people were referring to chemistry not pH.

I'm not going to debate this point since what is generally believed may depend on who you ask, but I will note that the term "chasing pH" and "don't chase pH" has been widely used to denigrate those who think pH measurement is desirable (like me). There's even an article by someone that a lot of folks look up to that has that as the literal title:

Don't chase the pH | Melev's Reef

melevsreef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wish I had a lower ph issue... Instead I have a higher pH issue, up to 8.63 and I don't know what to do to get it down. I'll be posting a thread soon with background.

More aeration will always bring it down, if it is accurate and alkalinity is not super high. Test error is a likely contributor unless you have very poor aeration or use very high pH alk additives.

 

[nick0206]

When I, 15 years ago, started my hobby, at the LFS, where I bought the necessary equipment, they said that PH in saltwater tanks is not measured, only KH. My first tank was with soft corals (xenia, zoas, mushrooms and anemones). Since then, the level of both experience and knowledge has grown a lot, but, although I understand that I would need to test a tank for PH, I still don’t do this and have no idea what level I have. I'm fine with growth and color level of my corals (more than 60 SPS frags and colonies and more 40 LPS) . Many guys from the hobby were at my house and noted that I had one of the most beautiful of those they saw.
At the LFS, where I usually go, I had an argument with one of the guys about PH. I told him that I had never tested my tank for the PH level and I did not see the point.
He asked me to show a photo of my corals and when he saw he said that in his opinion I have PH 8.3
And I don’t do anything for the PH, no outside air tube for the skimmer, no calcium reactor (I have a balling, before ECV, now DIY), no kalkwasser, no scrubber, no refuge (I have a system on Korallen-zucht).
I understand that many people read my confession with bewilderment, but still decided to share my experience on this topic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand that many people read my confession with bewilderment, but still decided to share my experience on this topic.

I do not find it bewildering. I'd give several comments:

1. Very few people will have pH low enough where the appearance of the tank suffers. pH primarily impacts hard coral growth rates.

2. At least half of reefers (IMO) at Reef2Reef do not routinely measure pH.

3. Of those that do measure pH, most do not do anything about the results.



So considering all of these three aspects, the risks of not measuring pH are low in terms of having a very nice tank. The risks are higher that hard coral growth rates may be lower than possible, but that is often not the goal of many reefers, especially in older tanks where growth becomes a problem/chore to deal with rather than a benefit.

 

[homer1475]

So considering all of these three aspects, the risks of not measuring pH are low in terms of having a very nice tank. The risks are higher than hard coral growth rates may be lower than possible, but that is often not the goal of many reefers, especially in older tanks where growth becomes a problem/chore to deal with rather than a benefit.

This is exactly what I was trying to say in another thread about chasing PH. Thank you for explaining it better then I.

 

[Gigajoulz]

More aeration will always bring it down, if it is accurate and alkalinity is not super high. Test error is a likely contributor unless you have very poor aeration or use very high pH alk additives.

What would you recommend to someone experiencing pH lower than 7.8? My pH ranges from 7.50 to 7.68, and I'm currently dosing Kalk (2tbsp/gal @ 750mL per day in RODI for ~daily evap, salinity seems stable). My calcium has hardly moved (580-600ppm) but my Alk has climbed from the 8-9 dKH range to 10-11 dKH.

The tank has been running since August 1st 2022, and I feed a cube of frozen food daily to 11 fish, snails, softies and a few stonies. I have 2x 10gal buckets worth of medium and large rocks, and two large bags of crushed coral for bedding. Could it be my coral bed?

I'm considering switching to sand when we move houses soon, dosing MgHydroxide alongside the Kalk for the additional Hydroxide, or switching to a two part that doesn't doesn't dose calcium. I think the calcium is a little high relative to my Mg (1450).

For more details, I posted a thread this morning > https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/low-ph-high-alk-and-calcium-with-kalkwasser.980062/#post-11289401 > along with my tank data since Aug 1st.

 

[hotdrop]

What would you recommend to someone experiencing pH lower than 7.8? My pH ranges from 7.50 to 7.68, and I'm currently dosing Kalk (2tbsp/gal @ 750mL per day in RODI for ~daily evap, salinity seems stable). My calcium has hardly moved (580-600ppm) but my Alk has climbed from the 8-9 dKH range to 10-11 dKH.

The tank has been running since August 1st 2022, and I feed a cube of frozen food daily to 11 fish, snails, softies and a few stonies. I have 2x 10gal buckets worth of medium and large rocks, and two large bags of crushed coral for bedding. Could it be my coral bed?

I'm considering switching to sand when we move houses soon, dosing MgHydroxide alongside the Kalk for the additional Hydroxide, or switching to a two part that doesn't doesn't dose calcium. I think the calcium is a little high relative to my Mg (1450).

For more details, I posted a thread this morning > https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/low-ph-high-alk-and-calcium-with-kalkwasser.980062/#post-11289401 > along with my tank data since Aug 1st.

you are over doing. You should not chase ph.

Target Alkalinity stability with dosing. Measure daily till it’s stable. Now that your are too high let it drop slowly.

Calcium won’t move after a certain point as it precipitate out. You basically can’t over dose it, you get get a lot of particles settling on your rocks.

For you the ph the symptom not the problem. This thread is mostly discussing how experts are squeezing that extra 5-10% growth our of their operations. You need to capture the first 90%.