The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
- Thread starter Paul B
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His new tank is new but with everything from his old tank. And everything survived
He uses diatom filter once a year or so for a few hours.
He hasn’t used ozone in 5 months now.
People have claimed and pointed to all of these, including his under gravel filter as the cause. Which is kinda funny. Especially when he is sharing and saying what he has found to be the reasons and why. You can’t beat the guy up for not disclosing every detail, and must say the vagueness makes it more intriguing, and leaves people to do their own experimenting. Which would only help the hobby as a whole if those who did have the courage and confidence to experiment and then share, as Paul has
I have about 15 in my RSR 350, but much smaller fish overall. My next tank will be the 750xxl. Do you have a build thread?
Edit: I actually took the time to count them, 13. Will be 14 on Thursday
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If adding one fish to an established tank resulting in death of all hasn’t convinced you of the need to
QT than nothing will. My QT is a constantly running 29g Biocube with gravel and rock for hiding. I do run a 9W UV light when fish are in the tank.
I see NO reason not to put all fish into a quiet, warmer, lower salinity tank for a minimum of six weeks to acclimate to your foods, lighting schedule, your choice of salt. If they show external sign of disease they’ll get over it and they stay longer. Copper and all antibiotics are appetite and immune suppressants. I’ve never medicated. In card games trust everyone but always cut the cards. Why not QT?
QT than nothing will. My QT is a constantly running 29g Biocube with gravel and rock for hiding. I do run a 9W UV light when fish are in the tank.
I see NO reason not to put all fish into a quiet, warmer, lower salinity tank for a minimum of six weeks to acclimate to your foods, lighting schedule, your choice of salt. If they show external sign of disease they’ll get over it and they stay longer. Copper and all antibiotics are appetite and immune suppressants. I’ve never medicated. In card games trust everyone but always cut the cards. Why not QT?
So happy to see the thread moving on
@fulltang
Hey I thought about your question Fulltang, and I feel strongly that export of the overall system helps to reduce disease this includes mass export at times.
There's a direct correlation to Paul's blasting with DE filters and our sand rinse thread, good stuff is adhered and bad stuff isn't, handy distinction.
Paul interrupts his detritus flow, and oxygenation gradient by employing rugf vs the opposite which is detritus isolating and creates pockets of anoxia
Rugf is aerating vs compacting, long term impacts
DE filtration of the RUGF catch zone is the exact equivalent internally to our external sand rinsing, good stuff stays and bad is periodically rinsed, though we take it a bit harsher. Hot tap water and 35% rinse is for invader parties
@fulltang
Hey I thought about your question Fulltang, and I feel strongly that export of the overall system helps to reduce disease this includes mass export at times.
There's a direct correlation to Paul's blasting with DE filters and our sand rinse thread, good stuff is adhered and bad stuff isn't, handy distinction.
Paul interrupts his detritus flow, and oxygenation gradient by employing rugf vs the opposite which is detritus isolating and creates pockets of anoxia
Rugf is aerating vs compacting, long term impacts
DE filtration of the RUGF catch zone is the exact equivalent internally to our external sand rinsing, good stuff stays and bad is periodically rinsed, though we take it a bit harsher. Hot tap water and 35% rinse is for invader parties
It very nice to see this post. My family has had saltwater tanks since the 80’s. Everything you stated is on point and I never qt anything. Ever. I don’t clean rock and never touch my sand bed. I’ve gotten sick fish often and within days become healthy. Great threadThe other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)
I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.
It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.
In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.
But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.
Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.
Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.
I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.
When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.
That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.
With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.
I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.
The things I do “not” do is quarantine.
I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.
I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank
I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.
I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.
If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.
(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)
The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.
I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.
If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.
I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.
I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.
If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.
It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.
I have not ever had that happen the only fish I worry about is the new unhealthy fish coming in. The others are fine.
I agree with you and dont recall saying it cures anything. As previously stated it reduces the parasites numbers enough for the fishes immune system to be able to handle the rest.
@HotRocks
i am really intrigued by the idea of a meth blu FW dip following Leebca procedure as preventative/safeguard before moving fish directly to DT and proceeding with this other method.
Any issue you see with going to DT vs QT (i know you are QT method, I mean in regards to this method)?
I guess, my main concern is stress. Could this stress the fish too much? I am thinking, that this would only help them in the DT, and adapting to my tank.
i am really intrigued by the idea of a meth blu FW dip following Leebca procedure as preventative/safeguard before moving fish directly to DT and proceeding with this other method.
Any issue you see with going to DT vs QT (i know you are QT method, I mean in regards to this method)?
I guess, my main concern is stress. Could this stress the fish too much? I am thinking, that this would only help them in the DT, and adapting to my tank.
Humblefish asked me to start a thread on my practices and the first thing I told him was that there will be arguing.
This is true, there is a ton more to my set up, and in the 9 years I have been on this forum I posted every aspect of my practices.
these are "my" theories and I can prove them.
If you read this thread I started on immunity you can see the research I put into it for this thread and my book
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/
Here is a quote:
Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
End quote
This goes on for many pages. I did not make up fish immunity as I am an electrician and not a researcher. But I try to prove what I propose in pictures. I have been showing my fish spawning and living out their lifetimes in many threads. My knowledge comes from experience and almost 300 hours underwater with the fish. None of it comes from rumors or the internet.
It seems that some people can't or won't get their fish immune so they will attack my methods. That is fine and what forums are for.
I have heard every argument and even Humblefish, my good friend disagrees with much of my theory (but we would never argue because we respect each others experience)
My tank and fish testify about my methods. I hope we can be civil here and not come up with silly things like the use of a diatom filter for a few hours a year.
Again, I never said your methods dont work. I merely dislike how you discredit known proven methods that you use. It doesnt take running them 24/7 for them to work. I'd argue my tank is just as immune as yours. I only run my UV on occasion. I have fish that used to have ich and it has gone away. I also have a heavily stocked tank including a yellow, blue and Achilles tang. Known ich magnet. It got a few spots for a day or two and hasn't since.
Again, I have never said your methods dont work
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I'm sorry I'm a bit confused by your post. I understand you are asking me forget about QT and will this work prior to plop and drop.
My question is are you asking if it would be beneficial to do a 5 min FW dip and MB bath? Or a FW dip with methalyne blue added to FW dip?
Methalyne Blue is a mild antiseptic. So if the fish had an abrasion or was exposed to ammonia during transport it may have some effectiveness. As far as a FW dip goes, it can remove most attached parasites and or worms. But it wouldn't be relevant to Paul's theory or benefecial as the fish will be exposed to them anyway once they enter the tank IMO.
And sorry I was confused but if you were getting at a MB combined with FW I would avoid that all together.
I've had this thought here in Australia too. For me, the very best information about this hobby comes from the US (like this forum!) but a lot of it comes from experience in what seems like an extremely high risk environment compared to what I see here in Australia. Something to do with the way fish are imported, housed, distributed etc?
Vagueness is not helpful when it leads to people killing all their fish because they fed them healthy and threw mud in from the ocean. It does not help the hobby. If someone is to try and replicate they need to know all about it and do their experimenting then. The use of DE or ozone does not need to be running 24/7 to help. Paul setting up his new tank and not running ozone doesnt prove anything either as the fish already have their 'immunity' built up. Adding new fish doesnt mean instant ich outbreak either especially when most of the fish have immunity built up.
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Agree 100%. The condition of fish here is so much different. I know members of R2R in Australia, UK, Sweden, to name a few that have never seen ich or velvet on a fish due to much stricter laws, regulations, practices, etc.
Wow! It looks like you shaved your forearms.
I’ve talked about this a little on this forum, because it’s my one of my favorite topics.
It’s a little late at night for me to go in depth, but let’s just say that it’s been almost 2 decades since I’ve quarantined anything that didn’t absolutely have to be quarantined.
I’ll be honest...I really don’t even acclimate.
(more on this stuff in the morning, post-coffee)
It’s a little late at night for me to go in depth, but let’s just say that it’s been almost 2 decades since I’ve quarantined anything that didn’t absolutely have to be quarantined.
I’ll be honest...I really don’t even acclimate.
(more on this stuff in the morning, post-coffee)
I run my tank largely as Paul does - lots of rock and algae growth, no detritus removal, natural foods, lots and lots of microfauna, & no QT set-up. (However no ozone or UV and the last time I used an undergravel filter for a saltwater tank was the late 1970's.) But the idea that a quarantine period will "short-circuit" a fish immune system does not seem all that plausible to me. Quarantine might kill a fish from stress but it is unlikely to strip a fish of their natural immunities.
I don't quarantine because I'm not confident that a QT tank would be helpful enough to offset the extra stress. And I only keep 4-5 inexpensive fish with minimal turnover. Which I purchase from a LFS that does quarantine. But even though I don't quarantine new fish - it seems unlikely that a quarantine period would somehow significantly diminish the immune system of a fish. Or that adding fatal diseases to a tank somehow toughens up the immune systems of the current tank inhabitants.
I suspect Paul (as he has stated) has simply developed a good eye for what fish to not purchase. And then cares for those new aquisitions with love, time and wisdom.
Like most things in the US, there are a few really good operations, and while bunch of crap.
I have accounts with a couple of local wholesalers where I can just walk in an pick out the fish/inverts/corals that I want, when I want.
But I would rather get things shipped in from L.A. There’s that big of a disparity.
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