The DOs and DON’Ts of Quarantine

USMC 4 LIFE · Oct 12, 2017

[*]DO test for ammonia often (and pH if doing hyposalinity); DON’T worry about nitrates, phosphates, even nitrites in a fish QT. Ammonia is toxic to ALL marine animals, even at low levels. However, most other parameters only affect fish at extremely high levels; unlike with corals/inverts.

How high can nitrates get before they become toxic in a QT?

Humblefish · Oct 12, 2017

USMC 4 LIFE said:
How high can nitrates get before they become toxic in a QT?

For fish, it would have to be at least 100ppm. Most can tolerate much higher than that.

James Barton · Oct 16, 2017

Hey humble if I got CP would I be fine with just that and prazipro?

Humblefish · Oct 16, 2017

James Barton said:
Hey humble if I got CP would I be fine with just that and prazipro?

Those two medications solve most problems, although I advocate always using them separately. However, CP cannot be used on wrasses, anthias, Hippo Tangs; therefore copper should be used on those species instead: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

Also, antibiotics may be needed for bacterial infections: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/antibiotics.283711/

James Barton · Oct 18, 2017

So my vet has finally given me the Rx for CP and it will be coming via mail from Diamondback drugs. I also have ordered the list of must haves and they are on the way as well.

Does it matter which I begin first the prazi or CP if I'm not seeing any symptoms of anything? And can I pour either of the treatments right into the tank with the fish or do I need to remove them, add treatment, allow to mix a while and then add them back?

billw · Oct 18, 2017

James Barton said:
So my vet has finally given me the Rx for CP and it will be coming via mail from Diamondback drugs. I also have ordered the list of must haves and they are on the way as well.

Does it matter which I begin first the prazi or CP if I'm not seeing any symptoms of anything? And can I pour either of the treatments right into the tank with the fish or do I need to remove them, add treatment, allow to mix a while and then add them back?

For the chloroquine, I just put some water from the hospital tank into a black container. I add the chloroquine and mix until dissolved. I find it easier to use a flat tool to mash the chloroquine against the botton of the vessel to aid in dissolving. For this I use a 1/4" acrylic rod that has a flat end. After I get it all dissolved I just slowly pour it into the stream of the powerhead in the hospital tank. I've never had a fish react to the chloroquine using that technique. I introduce General Cure using a similar procedure.

James Barton · Oct 18, 2017

Ok sounds easy enough. Thanks for the reply!

citymouse · Nov 24, 2017

Shouldn't you mix some of the water slowly when acclimating? The fish I've bought online a few months ago came with instructions to dump half of the water in the bag, float the bag and add about 1/2 c tank water every so many minutes until the bag water is doubled, then dump and do it again before moving the fish.
Do the other parameters of the water matter when moving fish, nitrates, PH, nitrites etc. what if they are different? I'll be moving fish from the QT tank and from my 75g to one large tank soon, from established tanks to a brand new one. Wondering the best way to do that. All of them will likely be about the same temp.

DO float & release your new fish; DON’T drip acclimate if you can help it. One of the advantages of QT is you can set the specific gravity (SG) to match the bag water. This can usually be determined beforehand by asking the online vendor or local fish shop (LFS) what SG they keep their fish in. Knowing this, you can just float the fish for 20-30 minutes, to slowly bring the temperature of the bag’s water to match that of the receiving tank. Once that is done, open the bag and double check the SG. So long as the SG is within .001 (up or down) of the receiving tank, you can release the fish without further acclimation. If the SG in the bag is lower than the QT, you can quickly lower the SG of a QT by replacing some saltwater with freshwater. If the SG in the bag is much higher than that in the QT, then you are forced to drip acclimate. When doing drip acclimation use an ammonia reducer (ex: Amquel or Prime) if a fish has been in transit for more than a couple of hours.

billw · Nov 24, 2017

citymouse said:
Shouldn't you mix some of the water slowly when acclimating?

Ammonia becomes more toxic at high pH. The problem is that the shipping water pH drops due to buildup of CO2 during shipping allowing the ammonia accumulation (normally at dangerous levels) to remain relatively harmless. As soon as the bag is opened and exposed to air, the CO2 level drops and the pH shoots up causing a rapid increase in free ammonia. Opinions seem to differ on the relative effect of that as opposed to not acclimating. I've chosen to match the bag salinity (most vendors seem to ship st 1.018, but measure first!) and just dump 'em and never had a problem. If you are buying locally the CO2/ammonia problem won't exist and you may choose to acclimate. The problem, it seems to me to be that most purchasers are unaware of the low salinity in vendor tanks. In that case acclimation will save the fish from osmotic shock.

DLHDesign · Nov 24, 2017

citymouse said:
The fish I've bought online a few months ago came with instructions to dump half of the water in the bag, float the bag and add about 1/2 c tank water every so many minutes until the bag water is doubled, then dump and do it again before moving the fish.

This is basically the same as a drip acclimation in terms of the net result. The only difference is that in the method you outline, the addition of the tank water happens in 1/2c increments instead of at the rate of a drip. Relatively speaking, that's a much more significant shift in water parameters all at once - which could be a shock to the fish. With some species, it likely wouldn't matter and they'll sort themselves out soon enough. But with some of the more delicate species, the shock of such a sudden shift could harm - potentially even kill - them.

In the end, you need to get the fish up to the levels in your DT. I don't know of any reason why this is something you would wait on. Seems to make more sense to me to acclimate the fish to your tank's SG as early as possible so that you aren't trying to maintain two different salinities (less confusion, if nothing else).
Additionally, I wouldn't dump the bag water into my QT. Doing so adds an unknown quantity to your QT tank (beyond water-born parasites and diseases, you can't know if there are medications or additives in the bag water that may impact your ability to react to the needs of your QT in unpredictable ways. I prefer to remove the fish from the bag water (using a strainer) and add them into the QT without any excessive amounts of bag water.

It is important to monitor (and correct) ammonia levels, of course. This is true at every step of the QT process. Ammonia badges work great in my experience - they allow you to only medicate if (and when) needed.

citymouse · Nov 24, 2017

DLHDesign said:
This is basically the same as a drip acclimation in terms of the net result. The only difference is that in the method you outline, the addition of the tank water happens in 1/2c increments instead of at the rate of a drip. Relatively speaking, that's a much more significant shift in water parameters all at once - which could be a shock to the fish. With some species, it likely wouldn't matter and they'll sort themselves out soon enough. But with some of the more delicate species, the shock of such a sudden shift could harm - potentially even kill - them.

In the end, you need to get the fish up to the levels in your DT. I don't know of any reason why this is something you would wait on. Seems to make more sense to me to acclimate the fish to your tank's SG as early as possible so that you aren't trying to maintain two different salinities (less confusion, if nothing else).
Additionally, I wouldn't dump the bag water into my QT. Doing so adds an unknown quantity to your QT tank (beyond water-born parasites and diseases, you can't know if there are medications or additives in the bag water that may impact your ability to react to the needs of your QT in unpredictable ways. I prefer to remove the fish from the bag water (using a strainer) and add them into the QT without any excessive amounts of bag water.

It is important to monitor (and correct) ammonia levels, of course. This is true at every step of the QT process. Ammonia badges work great in my experience - they allow you to only medicate if (and when) needed.

Oh, I didn't mean I dump the water into the tank, I mean dump it out, I do this in a bucket or in the sink with the drain closed... I know better

. I was just worried about different levels going from a fully established tank to a brand new uncycled tank, I'm worried about the transition for my clowns that I've had for 7 years and the others too of course. Could this be a shock when moving them? Water temps will be about the same within a degree or 2, salinity should be close to the same.

DLHDesign · Nov 24, 2017

citymouse said:
I was just worried about different levels going from a fully established tank to a brand new uncycled tank

I don't think I'd ever add fish into an uncycled tank. It's not the shock of the move that would kill them (though any shock can reduce their immune system and make them more prone to disease or complications), but that there wouldn't be anything in the new tank to clean up after them - no bacteria to reduce the ammonia levels, etc. The cycle process itself is also very rough (generally deadly) on fish.

But if you mean moving them from their established tank into a new tank post-cycle, then I would personally treat that as an opportunity to put all the fish through a month (or more) of quarantine. If that weren't possible, you would at least want to acclimate them to the new tank water in a more gradual manner than just moving them over. Assuming the salinity and temp are equal (or very close to; +/-.001 and +/- 1F, I'd think), then a 1-2hr drip (depending upon species - clowns are fine with 1hr) should be all you need. I'd also leave any in-tank pumps off (or low) for a day or two following the transfer to let everyone get accustomed to the new environment; work out their bolt-holes and sleeping spots and such. Might also want to run the lights lower for a bit as well for the same reasons. Things to look out for include any odd behavior that might indicate an outbreak of a problem (swimming into flow, scraping on rocks, unusual breathing, etc.) and/or any signs of aggression (the new digs may bring out competition that didn't exist before).

citymouse · Nov 25, 2017

DLHDesign said:
I don't think I'd ever add fish into an uncycled tank. It's not the shock of the move that would kill them (though any shock can reduce their immune system and make them more prone to disease or complications), but that there wouldn't be anything in the new tank to clean up after them - no bacteria to reduce the ammonia levels, etc. The cycle process itself is also very rough (generally deadly) on fish.

But if you mean moving them from their established tank into a new tank post-cycle, then I would personally treat that as an opportunity to put all the fish through a month (or more) of quarantine. If that weren't possible, you would at least want to acclimate them to the new tank water in a more gradual manner than just moving them over. Assuming the salinity and temp are equal (or very close to; +/-.001 and +/- 1F, I'd think), then a 1-2hr drip (depending upon species - clowns are fine with 1hr) should be all you need. I'd also leave any in-tank pumps off (or low) for a day or two following the transfer to let everyone get accustomed to the new environment; work out their bolt-holes and sleeping spots and such. Might also want to run the lights lower for a bit as well for the same reasons. Things to look out for include any odd behavior that might indicate an outbreak of a problem (swimming into flow, scraping on rocks, unusual breathing, etc.) and/or any signs of aggression (the new digs may bring out competition that didn't exist before).

Thanks, it's been a long time since I started a brand new tank, 7 or 8 years ago when I started a saltwater tank, I filled it with live rock to cycle, the clowns were my first 2 fish. Previously I had freshwater and basically the fish cycled the tank, lots of water changes and monitoring.

I think I need more advice then, I feel like a newbie here! First time with a sump set up (well, working on that now and it's been a nightmare). I bought dry rock this time around. My fish are fine waiting where they are, I'm impatient, I want the 215 done and ready to use and the 75g gone from that room, both are in my living room and it's too much...but I can wait if needed. Was hoping to have everything finished by Christmas, is that even a possibility? I'm in the middle of a plumbing nightmare, the left bulkhead leaked, I fixed it, then the right one leaked, couldn't fix it, bought 2 new pvc bulkheads, they don't fit...that's the long story short..building the plumbing was a whole other issues..but that's done now, just the stupid bulkhead issues are left. I just bought Wav pumps yesterday, rocks are in the tank, got the glue today, so that's tomorrows project. Once the plumbing is working, I can run the tank...hopefully this time is the charm and things don't leak, if they do, I may lose my mind, then the tank will no longer be an issue.

So anyway, how do I cycle a new tank without fish in it? What would be the best products to add/use etc. to get the tank ready? I always thought the fish needed to keep things alive in there. I do not want to put any of my existing live rock in there, I had a hair algae breakout that just won't quit, I admit I've neglected the tank a little since I've been working on the new one, and I also dropped and broke the pump I was using to do water changes using a brute can.... I'm not sure what the new tank need to get cycled and safe for the fish, or how long that takes. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Sorry I've gone off topic on this thread a little.

I've had blue/green chromis in my QT for a couple months, they are fine and can wait to be moved, no issue with them, but I'm not going to move them to my existing tank, I figured I'd just wait and they can go to the new one when it's ready.

A little more off topic here...There are 2 black clowns in my husbands QT that I'd love to add, is this possible?They are small, a new pair, but I don't want to upset my existing pair. I did post this questions before and read the hundreds of others who had similar questions, but not the same situation as me, adding a long time bonded pair and brand new pair to a entirely new tank together..most wanted to add more to and existing tank or buy more than 2 at a time etc.

Thank you for your help!

DLHDesign · Nov 25, 2017

citymouse said:
I think I need more advice then, I feel like a newbie here!

Me too! ;-)

citymouse said:
Was hoping to have everything finished by Christmas, is that even a possibility?

Should be, if things go well for you. Perhaps not totally up and running, but well on the way.

citymouse said:
I'm in the middle of a plumbing nightmare

Story of my life...

citymouse said:
So anyway, how do I cycle a new tank without fish in it?

There are several ways, actually. But what I think you're looking for is how to cycle your tank relatively quickly - and have it work.
What I did with my tank was used Red Sea's "Reef Mature Pro" kit. This is basically a "cycle in a box" kit that includes 21-day directions for how to get a box of water to turn into what can become a thriving reef system. The process allows for some small number of live fish additions around day 14 (depending upon your nutrients and such). It's certainly not the cheapest way to cycle a tank, but it is a systemic way to do so. If you're looking for step-by-step instructions to get you through the full cycle process, this is a good bet. Note that you will likely need multiple boxes of the kit in order to cycle a 215 tank.
There are also more simple "bacteria in a bottle" methods such as Dr. Tim's. There are plenty of reefers that have used this product effectively. It's not quite the full system that Red Sea offers, but it does give you the kick-start you need. The rest of the process is really feeding the bacteria (toss in a single frozen shrimp or prawn - the kind you might cook for yourself) and waiting; measuring nutrients as they adapt through the cycle.
Another option is to buy live rock and/or live sand and add this to the tank. Then add the shrimp as above and wait, measure, wait, etc. You can combine this with both the above methods to give them a boost as well.

citymouse said:
There are 2 black clowns in my husbands QT that I'd love to add, is this possible?

Your tank is large enough and if both pairs are added into the new tank at the same time, they should each go to their own areas and settle in. In theory. Perhaps. Maybe... These are, of course, live creatures each with their own personalities and agendas. What may have worked in one tank, may not in another - or vise-versa. If you're willing to go through the struggle and effort of capturing one or the other set from your DT, you could add them in at the same time and see how it goes.
TBH, this is not an area I am strong in - I've only had the one tank I have for ~1.5yrs, so if it's not happened in my tank, I've only heard (more often read) about it - usually here at R2R. I've only got the one pair of clowns, so...

citymouse said:
Sorry I've gone off topic on this thread a little.

This is the kind of stuff that works well in a build thread. You should start one of those, as it's a great place to get personalized advice and attention without having to re-describe your tank and it's history every time.

citymouse said:
Thank you for your help!

Of course! Happy to do so.

mfinn · Dec 2, 2017

So as I'm winding down treating 20 fish in a 90 gallon quarantine tank, I'm looking for the cheapest effective way to remove Coppersafe from the water. I'll probably do a 50% water change but what should I use to remove the rest?
Carbon or is Cuprisorb preferred ?
I am planning to do 2 rounds of Prazi pro last.