Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

[4FordFamily]

Okay...here's my dilema..or question or plan.
Have a 220g mixed reef established now going on 8+ months and doing well. Everything is controlled by Apex and 4 MP40/MP10s for flow plus a Gyre 180 so plenty of flow. Sump is a Trigger Systems Amytherst 34" and skimming is done with a Bubble Magnus Curve D8 with return via refugium and Reef Octopus x2 DC return pumps. So plenty of flow and current and tank is stable. Am using the Triton method too and all is well going on 90+ days with stable ph, alk, temp, Nitrate/Nitrite/NH3/Pho/Calcium etc.

Stocking tang wise currently is: 4 Yellow tangs added at the same time last Sept/Oct (2 remain - other 2 didn't make it thru QT); then 2 Hippo Tangs (2" each) added last Oct - 1 survived/smaller one died mysteriously over Xmas holidays after it stopped eating; survivor is healthy and about 4"; One Sailfin tang 3" and 1 Purple tang 4" added at the same time in early Nov, then finally 1 small Clown Tang 2.5" and larger Powder Blue Tang 3.5" (after 5 weeks of QT w/copper) in mid Nov after the PT and Sailfin were added. ALL tangs got along fine. No issues. Tank has plenty of Live Rock w/numerous caves and flow thru isles. Other inhabitants include 2 maroon clownfish (small), 2 O. clownfish (small), Rock Beauty Angel 3" (added in Oct), Blue Face Angel - juv 3.5" - added in Aug (1st fish), 2 diamond gobies (med), 8 green chromis (schooling nicely), 1 Rusty Angel 3" - added Oct/Nov and med Fiji Damsel - 2nd added back in Aug). Most recent addition is 3.5-4" long Blue Jaw Trigger - added last week and 1 adult Angularis Angel (4.5" long).

My Powder Blue recently succumbed to ich in Dec after I tried to add a med Majestic Angel (this was prior to getting the Blue Jaw and the Angularis) When I added the Majestic over Thanksgiving, the PBT went nuts and harassed him so bad that he kept him at the upper right corner of the tank almost 24/7. As soon as he saw he fight was on....rescued the Majestic after about a week or so and put him back in QT but he succumbed. Clown Tang never bothered him at all or any other additions. PBT then succumbed to ich outbreak along with I think one of the smaller Hippo tangs which previously was doing fine and had gone unbothered. So lost both PBT, Hippo, and Majestic at that point. All others doing well.

Tried a Naso tang in Jan that got over New Years day/holiday sales but he was too large (6" w/streamers) and just wasn't happy in the tank given the rock work and space even though its a 72" long tank. Returned him to get a smaller fish and tried a 3" convict tang earlier this month that my wife got me for an anniversary present but the Clown Tang became the aggressor and harrased him to the same right top area of the aquarium till I found him stuck to an MP10 in the tank 2 weeks ago. Wife replaced him with a med sized Powder Brown Tang and tried to acclimate him using an acclimation box for 3 days! Sailfin tang all of a sudden showed some intermitent interest shadowing the box and pulling nori out thru the holes in the box to eat but clown tang too severe interest and shadowed the PBrown Tang for all of day 1 and 1/2 of day 2...then left him alone for day 3.5! I thought all was good and let the PBrown Tang go the night of Day 4 after shutting down all of my AI Hydra lighting only to find the PBrown Tang dead wedged under a piece of rock work in the AM at feeding time. All other fish acted like they didn't know what happened and were nowhere near the "crime scene!" What happened to my peaceful Clown and Sailfin tangs? They hadn't bothered anybody or any additions after then and then bang for those two last fish?

Am thinking of adding a larger Powder Blue (Med/Large - who can hold their own likely) and a small Scopa Tang along with a small Vlamingi - small who is in QT now (I know they can get big but this guy is less than 2" long) and a Foxface - small (that is also in QT) next at the same time. That will be the end of the Tangs and only other fish to add is possibly one more dwarf angel I am thinking about (Eibli or Coral Beauty) . Interested in your thoughts 4FordFamily on this plan going forward and others input. As said did deliberate stocking taking into account the aggression patterns and best way forward with all my tangs AND my angels too and so far at this time right now...got a nice mix and everyone is chill and happy....just want to finish things off with the above fish so please let em know thoughts.

Pics of tank, tangs feeding (can see relative sizes), also larger view with some of rock work taken last Nov (have added more), and also the ill fated recent Powder Brown Tang in acclimation box addition (clown tang is flashing the box on the other tank side and can be seen if look hard while Sailfin is hoverin nearby towards bottom after stealing a bit of nori thru the holes in the acclimation box.

Otherwise...Great post...very informative...is the most I've learned about 1 species of marine fish since I started in 2008...read all 20 pages!

I wouldn’t advise adding any powder Blue, powder brown, or similar acanthurus tangs until you remove and treat all fish for ich. They cannot handle ich management. Here’s some reading for you (another article I wrote on the subject matter).

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Also, what you witnessed was a tank boss shift. You don’t want an aggressive fish as tank boss. This is one reason people like adding large naso tangs or larger docile tangs early— it disincentivizes a smaller and much nastier tang from becoming tank boss and terrorizing everyone, they’re effectively kept in check.

 

[4FordFamily]

My situation evolves from a problem. Problem was ich and my lack of understanding full effect on treatment. I lost a Naso and a Royal Gramma out of all my fish. I put my tank into hypo salinity as well as added a UV sterilizer. It’s been a month in hypo haven’t seen any signs of ich for 3 weeks. Will come out of hypo next week.

My question and appreciation again goes to @4FordFamily or anyone else with experience with this. My ideal goal would be to get a replacement Naso and an Achiles at the same time. Run them through quarentine together add them to display together. Maybe acclimation boxes?

My Tangs at this point are doing well together. This is the list:
Scopas
Yellow
Purple
Sailfin
Hippo
Orange Shoulder
Powder Blue
White tail bristletooth
Sohal

Housed in a 250 79 long 31 deep and 23 high.

Orange Shoulder, Purple, Yellow and Hippo are 6” down to 4” nose to tail. The rest are in the 2 to 3.5” range.

Ideally the achiles would be 4 to 5” and the Naso 4 to 6.

Am I pushing my luck? Skip the achiles and just do the Naso?

Yes, you’re pushing your luck, but if your Sohal and powder blue are 2-3 inches, you MAY have a chance. Definitely use a social acclimation box, and have a plan B!

Lots of variables and risk with mixing tangs, it’s so complex it’s more of an instinct you learn over time with experience. I try to share as much as I can but it depends so much on individual fish temperaments, hierarchy, environment, order of operations, etc.

 

[Reef4Rose]

Yes, you’re pushing your luck, but if your Sohal and powder blue are 2-3 inches, you MAY have a chance. Definitely use a social acclimation box, and have a plan B!

Lots of variables and risk with mixing tangs, it’s so complex it’s more of an instinct you learn over time with experience. I try to share as much as I can but it depends so much on individual fish temperaments, hierarchy, environment, order of operations, etc.

That’s kind of what I figured and am learning. Thank you sir!

 

[mdrobc13]

I wouldn’t advise adding any powder Blue, powder brown, or similar acanthurus tangs until you remove and treat all fish for ich. They cannot handle ich management. Here’s some reading for you (another article I wrote on the subject matter).

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Also, what you witnessed was a tank boss shift. You don’t want an aggressive fish as tank boss. This is one reason people like adding large naso tangs or larger docile tangs early— it disincentivizes a smaller and much nastier tang from becoming tank boss and terrorizing everyone, they’re effectively kept in check.

4FordFamily....ich isnt a problem really in the tank. First Powder blue came down with it but since added 50w UV sterilizer which I ran 24/7 for a bout a month and half then switched it on separate 12 hr cycle from my refugium UV light after I started my Triton method over the holidays. Cannot remove and treat all fish for ich...too many and do not have the QT space for that given tank size 210g if I wanted to. That isn't feasible in my case thus why I QT almost 90% of all new fish or have LFS do so.

Ah understand the tank boss shift explanation and makes sense....so I just tried another evolution of that. Found and added a large Powder Blue Tang about 5-6" who is now the larges acanthrus in the tank. While the clown tang who is about 3 iches and much smaller made a few dashes at him day one after I released him from the acclimation box (acrylic clear with holes for flow- used and put PBT in DT in this for 36 hrs after putting him in the DT with 30hrs lights out then 6 hrs lights on); the clown now leaves him be and they seem to enjoy swimming against the flow from my MP40s most of the time together along with the Med Sailfin tang who also gave him a few brushes when 1st introduced. Purple tang has left him along as has other yellow tangs. Large PBT is now the largest fish in the tank 2nd to my 6" adult Angularis angel and all seem to be doing okay. Also added a small foxface lo and small Vlamingi Naso Tang at the same time as introducing the PBT and they have had no issues or aggression and are doing fine. So far we're almost a week in and no fights...even at feeding time. Also am treating seaweed/nori and mysis with Zoe and Vitachem also to improve their immune system as well. Fingers crossed.

PBT now cruises the tank and ignores mostly everyone as he goes about his vigorous swimming rounds in and out of the MP40/10s and Gyre flows.

BTW would I be pushing it IF I added a tennenti (Lieutenant) tang as one last addition? Love how they look. Gut says definitely yes! Heart says why not try before PBT gets too established and rejects any other new fish additions.

 

[4FordFamily]

4FordFamily....ich isnt a problem really in the tank. First Powder blue came down with it but since added 50w UV sterilizer which I ran 24/7 for a bout a month and half then switched it on separate 12 hr cycle from my refugium UV light after I started my Triton method over the holidays. Cannot remove and treat all fish for ich...too many and do not have the QT space for that given tank size 210g if I wanted to. That isn't feasible in my case thus why I QT almost 90% of all new fish or have LFS do so.

Ah understand the tank boss shift explanation and makes sense....so I just tried another evolution of that. Found and added a large Powder Blue Tang about 5-6" who is now the larges acanthrus in the tank. While the clown tang who is about 3 iches and much smaller made a few dashes at him day one after I released him from the acclimation box (acrylic clear with holes for flow- used and put PBT in DT in this for 36 hrs after putting him in the DT with 30hrs lights out then 6 hrs lights on); the clown now leaves him be and they seem to enjoy swimming against the flow from my MP40s most of the time together along with the Med Sailfin tang who also gave him a few brushes when 1st introduced. Purple tang has left him along as has other yellow tangs. Large PBT is now the largest fish in the tank 2nd to my 6" adult Angularis angel and all seem to be doing okay. Also added a small foxface lo and small Vlamingi Naso Tang at the same time as introducing the PBT and they have had no issues or aggression and are doing fine. So far we're almost a week in and no fights...even at feeding time. Also am treating seaweed/nori and mysis with Zoe and Vitachem also to improve their immune system as well. Fingers crossed.

PBT now cruises the tank and ignores mostly everyone as he goes about his vigorous swimming rounds in and out of the MP40/10s and Gyre flows.

Swimming in the flow is a sign of velvet, watch that very intently.

Unfortunately I see a ticking time bomb with disease, I’ve been there and done that many times. Beautiful fish and tank, though!

 

[mdrobc13]

Swimming in the flow is a sign of velvet, watch that very intently.

Unfortunately I see a ticking time bomb with disease, I’ve been there and done that many times. Beautiful fish and tank, though!

Okay will do that then....my clown tang has been doing that like forever...maybe 3-4 months as has the Purple Tang and Sailfin who join in sometimes....given the PBT's propensity to like strong flow and gyre's figure that is the cause why he joined the swim club with the clown tang since introduced. The smaller Clown especially likes to hover in front of my MP10 at night regularly. Its like he's surfing the current almost from my perspective and what I can see. Most of the time they do this at night and not all day long 24/7. They get in formation almost (tangs) and just cruise the flow...will see if I can get a picture of them doing it tonight.

Have seen velvet before..it kills quickly...had a chevron tang bring it into my tank and lost like a fish a day until only a handful were alive with my 150g tank 2 yrs ago. Will keep my eye on them. PBT is dashing about the tank now from side to side while everyone else cruises about trying to stay out of his way since he swims so fast Read your article...thanks! Great info!

 

[Ento-Reefer]

looking for some advice on adding a tang or two after I get the rest of my planned fish into my 180g. Current tangs are a Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus, and a Scopas . I have had the blue lipped for 4 years so I think it is full sized or close to it and he is the boss. The scopas doesn't bother anyone and I have had it since December.

Current Stock
Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus
Scopas
Melanurus
Firefish x 3
Diamond Goby
Azure damsel x 2 (Pair)

Planned additions
Leopard Wrasse x 2
Flasher Wrasse x 2
Black Occ clown x 2

Possible Tang Choices
Powder Blue
Purple Tang
Mimic Tang
Blue hippo

Of the 4 tangs listed which two would have the best chance of fitting in with my current and planned stock? I would actually be fine with adding only one more tang, but I worry that would not work as I have always heard adding 2 or more at once works better. My hubby would really like for me to add the powder blue, but I am not set on any of them and would be happy with any. I should add that all fish have been qt and are disease free and all future fish will also be qt by me or I will purchase from Humblefish

 

[4FordFamily]

looking for some advice on adding a tang or two after I get the rest of my planned fish into my 180g. Current tangs are a Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus, and a Scopas . I have had the blue lipped for 4 years so I think it is full sized or close to it and he is the boss. The scopas doesn't bother anyone and I have had it since December.

Current Stock
Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus
Scopas
Melanurus
Firefish x 3
Diamond Goby
Azure damsel x 2 (Pair)

Planned additions
Leopard Wrasse x 2
Flasher Wrasse x 2
Black Occ clown x 2

Possible Tang Choices
Powder Blue
Purple Tang
Mimic Tang
Blue hippo

Of the 4 tangs listed which two would have the best chance of fitting in with my current and planned stock? I would actually be fine with adding only one more tang, but I worry that would not work as I have always heard adding 2 or more at once works better. My hubby would really like for me to add the powder blue, but I am not set on any of them and would be happy with any. I should add that all fish have been qt and are disease free and all future fish will also be qt by me or I will purchase from Humblefish

Hello, I commend your planning and forethought, first and foremost.

To be honest, none of those tangs should disagree with future additions. Adding a purple could cause issues with the scopas as they can be little devils sometimes but more importantly they’re of the same genus. If you were to add more zebrasoma tangs id recommend two more of different species added concurrently.

Powder blue and mimic are both acanthurus tangs, and of any ich exists you’ll know in short order! Mimic are a handsome fish but not nearly as aggressive as the PBT, which I classify as the most aggressive tang, all else considered. Unforgiving and relentless, and not a fish to forgive and forget, often holding grudges for months before the beat up fish is returned, only to immediately single it and only it out all over again. For this reason, I’d recommend if you did a powder blue, it be the last tang/angel/butterfly added to the tank. They tend to be most aggressive to tangs, then butterflies due to similar shape, then angels similar in shape, but some angels stay off the radar altogether.

A powder blue as the lone tang tends to bully other fish species as well to assert dominance, but if other tangs are present I’ve seen this behavior be few and far between. In short, they’ll choose to boss around kin, which is usually less problematic than bullying weaker or more submissive wrasse and other fish.

Hippo of these, will eventually outgrow the tank. They get very large. It may take years for this to occur, however. They’re usually more docile and get along well with tangs that won’t beat on it, which is not many. More tangs = less singling out of any individual tang - usually. Exceptions always exist and so it’s always a risk when mixing these aggressive herbivores.

I am quite fond of powder blues, despite their nasty dispotion. I find them to be worth it if kept disease free and kept among other tangs.

For color reasons, I’d choose either PBT or Hippo, and then probably the mimic. Even though the mimic and PBT are both acanthurus, they’re different enough in shape that it’s not likely to be problematic if added together.

I hope this helps!

 

[4FordFamily]

Also, to reduce the odds of a tyrant powder becoming being take boss should you go that route (which can be problematic) I recommend neutralizing it with a larger tang (if you had a larger tank, naso are a great equalizer). Sailfin tangs are often more docile as far as zebrasoma tangs go, and i would be more shocked if a small scopas pressed its luck with a sailfin, though they share the zebrasoma genus.

Of course, over time if the powder blue grows faster, social dynamics may change, causing the powder blue to take over as tank boss. Sometimes this is an issue, other times it is not—- some just want the authority and feel no need to use it.

However, this can also be achieved by buying a small powder blue. I find them very difficult to keep smaller than 2.3-3 inches, however. 3-4 inches is a hardy enough size, typically. A large bristlooth tang can be a good tank boss, although I find Kole to be tyrannical on occasion.

 

[Ento-Reefer]

Thank you @4FordFamily for the advice. I would rather not add a fish that would need to be removed later if at all possible, so the hippo is out. I kind of figured it would get a little large for this tank. This is my first time having a tank large enough to keep multiple tangs so I don’t have any personal experience with keeping more than 2 in a tank.
The blue lipped is boss, but it is not the largest fish lol. It is pretty mellow and just displays a little to the melanirus and occasionally chases the diamond out of its way. Would a sailfin outgrow the 180? If not maybe adding a larger sailfin and medium PBT at the same time would work? What do you think? Would the PBT as the only other tang added alone work? I have never seen one available less then 3” so it will be at least that size. Thanks

 

[4FordFamily]

Yes eventually a sailfin can outgrow a 180 as well but they’re not very demanding with regards to tank space like some larger tangs. In truth most tangs in my 180 will eventually outgrow it, but I rehome fish when needed. I plan to build a large wall tank so I’ll have a place for the giants!

Thank you @4FordFamily for the advice. I would rather not add a fish that would need to be removed later if at all possible, so the hippo is out. I kind of figured it would get a little large for this tank. This is my first time having a tank large enough to keep multiple tangs so I don’t have any personal experience with keeping more than 2 in a tank.
The blue lipped is boss, but it is not the largest fish lol. It is pretty mellow and just displays a little to the melanirus and occasionally chases the diamond out of its way. Would a sailfin outgrow the 180? If not maybe adding a larger sailfin and medium PBT at the same time would work? What do you think? Would the PBT as the only other tang added alone work? I have never seen one available less then 3” so it will be at least that size. Thanks

 

[Brew12]

Thank you @4FordFamily for the advice. I would rather not add a fish that would need to be removed later if at all possible, so the hippo is out. I kind of figured it would get a little large for this tank. This is my first time having a tank large enough to keep multiple tangs so I don’t have any personal experience with keeping more than 2 in a tank.
The blue lipped is boss, but it is not the largest fish lol. It is pretty mellow and just displays a little to the melanirus and occasionally chases the diamond out of its way. Would a sailfin outgrow the 180? If not maybe adding a larger sailfin and medium PBT at the same time would work? What do you think? Would the PBT as the only other tang added alone work? I have never seen one available less then 3” so it will be at least that size. Thanks

Only an uncaring, insensitive fish keeper would ever put a sailfin in a 180g tank.

Or @4FordFamily has one in his and it should be fine.

 

[4FordFamily]

Only an uncaring, insensitive fish keeper would ever put a sailfin in a 180g tank.

Or @4FordFamily has one in his and it should be fine.

I have a hippo in mine as well! Lol

 

[Brew12]

I have a hippo in mine as well! Lol

Yeah, but your Hippo Tang is a coward.

No one should ever put one in a 6' tank, let alone a 5' tank like mine. That is why I went with these fish.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yeah, but your Hippo Tang is a coward.

No one should ever put one in a 6' tank, let alone a 5' tank like mine. That is why I went with these fish.

That hippo looks really really unhealthy and thin. It’s probably malnourishment and overcrowdedness

 

[Brew12]

That hippo looks really really unhealthy and thin. It’s probably malnourishment and overcrowdedness

It's not a Hippo Tang. It's a Dory. There is a difference.

And Dory isn't a yellow bellied coward!

On a more serious note, have you ever seen a Hippo that didn't have at least a little HLLE? I have never seen one, in person or in a picture, that didn't have at least some.

 

[4FordFamily]

My yellow belly is unhappy too

I can’t believe you think a Maggie fox face is an acceptable tankmate for your hippo.

 

[4FordFamily]

It's not a Hippo Tang. It's a Dory. There is a difference.

And Dory isn't a yellow bellied coward!

On a more serious note, have you ever seen a Hippo that didn't have at least a little HLLE? I have never seen one, in person or in a picture, that didn't have at least some.

Yes I have, but not over 4 inches. I’ve more or less considered it an “adult plumage”.

 

[Brew12]

My yellow belly is unhappy too

I can’t believe you think a Maggie fox face is an acceptable tankmate for your hippo.

It's a heck of a lot better than putting one in a system with a Yellow Tang like you keep yours!

 

[Brew12]

Yes I have, but not over 4 inches. I’ve more or less considered it an “adult plumage”.

I'm feeling the same way. Mine is pushing 7" right now and I keep hoping it may go away. I'll just take comfort that it is much better than many other Hippo's its size that I have seen.