Swedish fish - behind the scenes rebuilding a public aquarium

[Sallstrom]

I can't see why brine couldn't reproduce in the fuge myself, if there isn't any predators.
Rotifers?? fresh water aren't they?

If I should guess, artemia will not survive long in a reef tank. Sure, they survive and reproduce in reef tank water, no problem, but they're eaten, sucked into pumps, going into overflows etc. They are mostly swimming near the surface, in other words an easy snack for any fish.

They do well in ponds and buckets, with no or very little water motion. So if you turn down the flow through the refugium really low(drops/min) and add a 5mm mesh for the overflow, you could get the adults to stay there and reproduce. We have a small tank like that now. But only with about 10 adults in 20 L water, no swarming so far

I'm not convinced that the swarming stuff in the video is artemia. I'm impressed by the density for sure, but can't see what type of organisms they are. Could be small benthic mysids/mysis.

Rotifers do well in full salinity too. At least the strain we have.

 

[gregkn73]

So you don't believe adding adult brine shrimp to the fuge will work at all?

In an established tank, I think it is impossible. Similar to adding live phyto or rotifers. Everything prey on them.

Actually I think that, if a hobbyist can maintain a live phyto culture, the only other separate live culture, that is "profitable" = worth the time, effort and expenses, to maintain, is...... rotifers.

 

[gregkn73]

If I should guess, artemia will not survive long in a reef tank. Sure, they survive and reproduce in reef tank water, no problem, but they're eaten, sucked into pumps, going into overflows etc. They are mostly swimming near the surface, in other words an easy snack for any fish.

They do well in ponds and buckets, with no or very little water motion. So if you turn down the flow through the refugium really low(drops/min) and add a 5mm mesh for the overflow, you could get the adults to stay there and reproduce. We have a small tank like that now. But only with about 10 adults in 20 L water, no swarming so far

I'm not convinced that the swarming stuff in the video is artemia. I'm impressed by the density for sure, but can't see what type of organisms they are. Could be small benthic mysids/mysis.

Rotifers do well in full salinity too. At least the strain we have.

3 years ago, with much effort, I only manage to bring to adulthood in a 12lt tank, ~ 50 adults brine shrimp, in my best attempt! Didn't worth the time, money and effort. I tried many type of foods , only aeration oraeration+ biological media or aeration+ live rock rubble, etc ,with minimal or zero results.


Rotifers in full salinity, reproduce just a little slower, in my case. But then ,they survive longer time in my tank

 

[NY_Caveman]

Too much?
View attachment 915531

Unless you are selling the corals, I see nothing wrong with spicing it up.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

If I should guess, artemia will not survive long in a reef tank. Sure, they survive and reproduce in reef tank water, no problem, but they're eaten, sucked into pumps, going into overflows etc. They are mostly swimming near the surface, in other words an easy snack for any fish..

No fish in my semi cryptic zone. They (artemia) are attracted to light, so I'm hoping the subdued blue light will be a lamppost in the darkness?

="Sallstrom, post: 5464140, member: 80166"]They do well in ponds and buckets, with no or very little water motion. So if you turn down the flow through the refugium really low(drops/min) and add a 5mm mesh for the overflow, you could get the adults to stay there and reproduce.

The flow is intentionally slow by design per Steve Tyree recommendation

="Sallstrom, post: 5464140, member: 80166"]="Sallstrom, post: 5464140, member: 80166"]
I'm not convinced that the swarming stuff in the video is artemia. I'm impressed by the density for sure, but can't see what type of organisms they are. Could be small benthic mysids.

Yes, impossible to know. I did a torch test last night & I certainly have zooplankton swimming around, but not to the video extent.

I've just lost power here, thunder, & am now glad that I set up a simple battery backup for my wave maker for internal flow. Its 8:30 at night, so who knows when the problem will be fixed

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I've just lost power here, thunder, & am now glad that I set up a simple battery backup for my wave maker for internal flow. Its 8:30 at night, so who knows when the problem will be fixed

Worse still,,, seriously, is I was about to watch the latest episode of VIKINGS, my favourite TV serial.

THOR, I blame you for this!

 

[Sallstrom]

No fish in my semi cryptic zone. They (artemia) are attracted to light, so I'm hoping the subdued blue light will be a lamppost in the darkness?

The flow is intentionally slow by design per Steve Tyree recommendation


Yes, impossible to know. I did a torch test last night & I certainly have zooplankton swimming around, but not to the video extent.

I've just lost power here, thunder, & am now glad that I set up a simple battery backup for my wave maker for internal flow. Its 8:30 at night, so who knows when the problem will be fixed

Oh no, hope you get the power back soon! ;Nailbiting

I read the Wiki page for Artemia yesterday, it said nauplii's are drawn to light while adults are rejected/swim the opposite direction. Not sure thats true, but whould be easy to test

I think a simple set up that should work would be a tank above the DT, use a dosing pump to pump water from the DT to this small tank and have an overflow back to the DT. Then you can feed with whatever you like, grow chaeto, and you'll get nauplii's into the DT through the overflow(use a mesh or the adult will probably escape as well).

 

[Sallstrom]

First results are in! Now I just have to reread some articles about inorganic and organic carbon to understand the results

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Worse still,,, seriously, is I was about to watch the latest episode of VIKINGS, my favourite TV serial.

THOR, I blame you for this!

Bummer

 

[Sallstrom]

Looks like we are okey or a bit low on organic carbon in most our tanks, except the cold water system. And a bit low in KH in some coral tanks, but that's nothing new
I not really chasing numbers right now, I'm just interested to see difference between our tanks. We run them a bit differently and dose carbon source in some and not in others. And have refugium in some but not all systems.
The soft coral system, a high nutrient water, was actually low in TOC even if we dose a lot.
Sorry for this messy post, we got many tanks so it's hard to go through them all here. I'll get back soon with a more organised post about the results

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Looks like we are okey or a bit low on organic carbon in most our tanks, except the cold water system. And a bit low in KH in some coral tanks, but that's nothing new
I not really chasing numbers right now, I'm just interested to see difference between our tanks. We run them a bit differently and dose carbon source in some and not in others. And have refugium in some but not all systems.
The soft coral system, a high nutrient water, was actually low in TOC even if we dose a lot.
Sorry for this messy post, we got many tanks so it's hard to go through them all here. I'll get back soon with a more organised post about the results

So you have tested for TOC in your systems?
More info pls ;Bookworm

 

[Sallstrom]

Here's an example of what it looks like. This is the Triton N-DOC analysis for the 10000L reef tank.

I'm not the right person to go into detail on the chemistry here. But it's inorganic carbon, organic carbon, total carbon, total nitrogen (?) and the KH. And if you add your own nitrate level(from your own testing), they calculate the ration of NO3 and other N.
You can and see the ratio between N, C, P.

And here's a picture of the tank too!

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Here's an example of what it looks like. This is the Triton N-DOC analysis for the 10000L reef tank.
View attachment 916414
View attachment 916415 View attachment 916416

I'm not the right person to go into detail on the chemistry here. But it's inorganic carbon, organic carbon, total carbon, total nitrogen (?) and the KH. And if you add your own nitrate level(from your own testing), they calculate the ration of NO3 and other N.
You can and see the ratio between N, C, P.

And here's a picture of the tank too!
View attachment 916421

I wonder what they base the correct level of TOC upon????

 

[Sallstrom]

I wonder what they base the correct level of TOC upon????

They've done a lot of tests both on aquariums and natural reefs. Then they've figured out a "Triton set point" from that data I guess.

I know the owner and I'm pretty confident in him and his team

 

[Scrubber_steve]

They've done a lot of tests both on aquariums and natural reefs. Then they've figured out a "Triton set point" from that data I guess.
know the owner and I'm pretty confident in him and his team

OK, but when should a water sample be taken? The level of TOC changes a lot through a 24 hour period. There's a peak 6 or so hours after feeding. Then that is reduced by bacteria - skimming, GAC.

Questions; (really thinking about disolved organics)

what problems can arise if -

a. you have too much TOC in the system?

b. not enough TOC in the system?

c. how do you controll the TOC level in your systems Sallstrom?

 

[Subsea]

OK, but when should a water sample be taken? The level of TOC changes a lot through a 24 hour period. There's a peak 6 or so hours after feeding. Then that is reduced by bacteria - skimming, GAC.

Questions; (really thinking about disolved organics)

what problems can arise if -

a. you have too much TOC in the system?

b. not enough TOC in the system?

c. how do you controll the TOC level in your systems Sallstrom?

I also trust algae filtration and Triton Method. The Chinese have been doing algae filtration for 2000 years and I mimic success. As I see it, TOC is circulated amongst the biofilter which consist of bacteria, algae & sponges. With opposite light cycle, TOC has a two way street to go between display and refugium. After that, I trust “natural filtration”.

I harvest excess algae as nutrient export. I use algae refugiums as the nutrient bank supplying TOC to corals on demand.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I also trust algae filtration and Triton Method. The Chinese have been doing algae filtration for 2000 years and I mimic success. As I see it, TOC is circulated amongst the biofilter which consist of bacteria, algae & sponges. With opposite light cycle, TOC has a two way street to go between display and refugium. After that, I trust “natural filtration”.

I harvest excess algae as nutrient export. I use algae refugiums as the nutrient bank supplying TOC to corals on demand.

So too little disolved organic carbon could affect microbe populations. But how much do they need?

 

[Sallstrom]

OK, but when should a water sample be taken? The level of TOC changes a lot through a 24 hour period. There's a peak 6 or so hours after feeding. Then that is reduced by bacteria - skimming, GAC.

Questions; (really thinking about disolved organics)

what problems can arise if -

a. you have too much TOC in the system?

b. not enough TOC in the system?

c. how do you controll the TOC level in your systems Sallstrom?

IMO it's a lot up to each aquarist to see if they can find trends and correlations with the numbers and their inhabitants. So look at the numbers, look at the tank. Repeat after some time

Triton has done this and have some tips on their homepage. But I also like to see for myself.
It's like a snapshot of the tank. If you're happy with everything in the tank when the sample is taken, maybe you want to stay at those levels. Maybe you can see a trend with high TOC and Cyanobacteria? I don't know yet. This is new territory. I know Triton has done it for a while before they started selling theses tests, so I guess they're the ones who knows best at this point.

I'm not sure how easy it'll be to lower TOC, that might be a challenge. Maybe upgrade the filtration and export.
To raise TOC you could dose a carbon source.

 

[Subsea]

When I saw BRS TV video of 160G SPS dominate tank with a 25G macro refugium feed as much as 6 Oz of fish, shrimp & mollusk protein every day with zero inorganic nitrates & phosphates on test kits, I know that bacteria are transporting nutrients thru the microbial look up the food chain, but who can measure it with those dynamics. Provide oxygen, circulation and light and let the microbes work it out.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Hello @Sallstrom & @Lasse where ever you've disappeared to

Interested in any input you may have here
Pelagic Bacteria Counts & BART Heterotrophic Aerobic Bacteria (HAB) test