Sulfur Denitrator questions.

[iReefer12]

Just recapping the progress.

July 8th. 2024
No3 Levels: 130ppm down to 60ppm
5.75l of media = 260ml/min. ORP: -200
Effluent: 0ppm @ 260ml/min
Too much media, removed some on July 26th when DT reached 60ppm No3.

July 26th. 2024
No3 Levels: 45ppm
2.6l of media = 175ml/min. ORP: 0
Effluent: 6.5ppm @ 170ml/min
No3 stabilized and held at ~40ppm, starting to rise very slowly in DT, now 45ppm. Feeding heavy. Could be No3 bound in rock.

August 5th. 2024
No3 Levels: 40ppm*
4l of media = 200ml/min. ORP:-65
Effluent: ?ppm @ 200ml/min
Added another 1.4l of sulfur media. Haven’t tested effluent yet.

No3 Levels visualized by Trident NP on apex graphs:

 

[Rst]

Hi iReefer,

I thought you might be interested in my own sulphur reactor journey. Through excel, I have plotted my ORP readings (ml/min) vs effluent FLOW (mv) from Jul6th to today Aug 8. During this time, my Display tank nitrates have gone from over 75ppm to today 15ppm. Over this period I have adjusted the flow daily, with the goal of keeping my effluent nitrates above 0ppm. This measuring the effluent nitrate and the adjusting the effluent flow was extremely tedious and often I could not adjust the flow correctly and wound up with unwanted zero ppm effluent readings. I believe that 0ppm effluent results in unwanted sulphur gas bubbles collecting at the top of my reactor lid.



I tried my best to find some general relationship of the ORP values to help me with when to adjust the effluent flow and by how much. The ORP values were so sensitive to the flow, sometimes quickly rising way up or sometimes quickly falling way down, that I could not make any general conclusions to when to make flow adjustments and still keeping my effluent nitrates above zero.



Since you have also seemed to be keeping track of the ORP values during your journey, I thought you might be interested in my scattered results. Personally, I have not found any meaningful relationships using ORP to help me dial in the sulphur reactor.

Ron

 

[Harpo]

IMHO the best advice is to purchase a high-quality needle valve

Hayward Needle Valve

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[iReefer12]

Hi iReefer,

I thought you might be interested in my own sulphur reactor journey. Through excel, I have plotted my ORP readings (ml/min) vs effluent FLOW (mv) from Jul6th to today Aug 8. During this time, my Display tank nitrates have gone from over 75ppm to today 15ppm. Over this period I have adjusted the flow daily, with the goal of keeping my effluent nitrates above 0ppm. This measuring the effluent nitrate and the adjusting the effluent flow was extremely tedious and often I could not adjust the flow correctly and wound up with unwanted zero ppm effluent readings. I believe that 0ppm effluent results in unwanted sulphur gas bubbles collecting at the top of my reactor lid.



I tried my best to find some general relationship of the ORP values to help me with when to adjust the effluent flow and by how much. The ORP values were so sensitive to the flow, sometimes quickly rising way up or sometimes quickly falling way down, that I could not make any general conclusions to when to make flow adjustments and still keeping my effluent nitrates above zero.



Since you have also seemed to be keeping track of the ORP values during your journey, I thought you might be interested in my scattered results. Personally, I have not found any meaningful relationships using ORP to help me dial in the sulphur reactor.

Ron

This is great info @Rst! It’s great that we can compare notes, sounds like we’ve been on the same journey and about the same time too.

I’ve ran out of tests for the effluent. As soon as I get them in I’ll let you know what the effluent reads.

ORP is holding steady at around -70.

It’s hard to read on your graph, but does that read 400ml/min? And orp in the + and still reading 0ppm?

Do you know by chance what No3 gets turned into by the bacteria on the sulfur media? What the byproduct is? Is it Po4? Nitrate? Something else? I’ve noticed Po4 is climbing a bit, but it could be unrelated.

 

[Rst]

This is great info @Rst! It’s great that we can compare notes, sounds like we’ve been on the same journey and about the same time too.

I’ve ran out of tests for the effluent. As soon as I get them in I’ll let you know what the effluent reads.

ORP is holding steady at around -70.

It’s hard to read on your graph, but does that read 400ml/min? And orp in the + and still reading 0ppm?

Sorry about the readability of the graph. No, by Aug8 my flow was just above 40 ml/min, not 400 ml/min;
The values on the left side of the graph shows +55 at the top, then drops to 0, and then drops into negative values and ending at the bottom at -200. So the ORP(mv) values begin at -200mv and stay negative for the majority of the days. Then around Aug1 it finally reaches 0mv. Thereafter (Aug1 to Aug6) orp fluctuates both negative and positive, either approx. down to -50mv or up to +50mv. From Aug7 to 8th, orp stays positive, rising up to approx 50mv.

In terms of the effluent flow, the graph tries to show approx. 1-5 ml/min around Jul6 and gradually rises to approx 45 ml/min by Aug 8th. Hope that helps.

Do you know by chance what No3 gets turned into by the bacteria on the sulfur media? What the byproduct is? Is it Po4? Nitrate? Something else? I’ve noticed Po4 is climbing a bit, but it could be unrelated.

I have read many articles about the Nitrate reactor. Generally most say that the PO4 is not greatly affected by the Nitrate reactor. My chemistry is very poor, so I can't really comment on your question re biproducts. But I did use chatGPT, where I asked: "Is the ORP level of the aquarium water passing through the inside my sulphur reactor, the best indicator of the bacteria that is needed to reduce the nitrate level of my aquarium water? "

ChatGPT response:

Yes, the ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential) level of the water passing through your sulfur reactor can be a useful indicator of the conditions within the reactor and the activity of the bacteria responsible for reducing nitrates. Here’s how it works and what to look for:

Understanding ORP and Sulfur Reactors

1. Sulfur Reactors:
   • Sulfur reactors use sulfur as a substrate for denitrifying bacteria, which convert nitrates (NO3-) into nitrogen gas (N2), removing them from the aquarium water.
   • The bacteria involved in this process typically thrive in low-oxygen (anaerobic) environments.
2. Role of ORP:
   • ORP measures the ability of the water to either release or accept electrons from chemical reactions. It is expressed in millivolts (mV).
   • In a sulfur reactor, the ORP level indicates the redox conditions within the reactor, which directly affects bacterial activity.

ORP Levels and Bacterial Activity

• Positive ORP Values: Indicate oxidative conditions, which are less favorable for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria.
• Negative ORP Values: Indicate reductive conditions, which are more favorable for the anaerobic bacteria needed for nitrate reduction.

Optimal ORP Range for Sulfur Reactors

• ORP Range for Denitrification:
  • A negative ORP value, typically between -50 mV to -200 mV, is often considered optimal for the activity of denitrifying bacteria in sulfur reactors.

END OF ChatGPT response

 

[Harpo]

Can you mix up and Sulphur and aragonite or does it need be kept separate layers?

 

[Rst]

Sorry about the readability of the graph. No, by Aug8 my flow was just above 40 ml/min, not 400 ml/min;
The values on the left side of the graph shows +55 at the top, then drops to 0, and then drops into negative values and ending at the bottom at -200. So the ORP(mv) values begin at -200mv and stay negative for the majority of the days. Then around Aug1 it finally reaches 0mv. Thereafter (Aug1 to Aug6) orp fluctuates both negative and positive, either approx. down to -50mv or up to +50mv. From Aug7 to 8th, orp stays positive, rising up to approx 50mv.

In terms of the effluent flow, the graph tries to show approx. 1-5 ml/min around Jul6 and gradually rises to approx 45 ml/min by Aug 8th. Hope that helps.



I have read many articles about the Nitrate reactor. Generally most say that the PO4 is not greatly affected by the Nitrate reactor. My chemistry is very poor, so I can't really comment on your question re biproducts. But I did use chatGPT, where I asked: "Is the ORP level of the aquarium water passing through the inside my sulphur reactor, the best indicator of the bacteria that is needed to reduce the nitrate level of my aquarium water? "

ChatGPT response:

Yes, the ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential) level of the water passing through your sulfur reactor can be a useful indicator of the conditions within the reactor and the activity of the bacteria responsible for reducing nitrates. Here’s how it works and what to look for:

Understanding ORP and Sulfur Reactors

1. Sulfur Reactors:
   • Sulfur reactors use sulfur as a substrate for denitrifying bacteria, which convert nitrates (NO3-) into nitrogen gas (N2), removing them from the aquarium water.
   • The bacteria involved in this process typically thrive in low-oxygen (anaerobic) environments.
2. Role of ORP:
   • ORP measures the ability of the water to either release or accept electrons from chemical reactions. It is expressed in millivolts (mV).
   • In a sulfur reactor, the ORP level indicates the redox conditions within the reactor, which directly affects bacterial activity.

ORP Levels and Bacterial Activity

• Positive ORP Values: Indicate oxidative conditions, which are less favorable for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria.
• Negative ORP Values: Indicate reductive conditions, which are more favorable for the anaerobic bacteria needed for nitrate reduction.

Optimal ORP Range for Sulfur Reactors

• ORP Range for Denitrification:
  • A negative ORP value, typically between -50 mV to -200 mV, is often considered optimal for the activity of denitrifying bacteria in sulfur reactors.

END OF ChatGPT response

Try this revised chart which might be slightly more readible?? Remember that the vertical scale on the left is for both ORP and the effluent flow at any given day. The only difference is the value on the scale means mv when referring to the ORP (orange) line and the same values on the vertical scale means ml/min when referring to the effluent Flow (blue) line: (ignore any missing gaps in the blue line)

 

[Rst]

Can you mix up and Sulphur and aragonite or does it need be kept separate layers?

I don't know. Mine is separate but you would think that it wouldn't matter??

 

[iReefer12]

Sorry about the readability of the graph. No, by Aug8 my flow was just above 40 ml/min, not 400 ml/min;
The values on the left side of the graph shows +55 at the top, then drops to 0, and then drops into negative values and ending at the bottom at -200. So the ORP(mv) values begin at -200mv and stay negative for the majority of the days. Then around Aug1 it finally reaches 0mv. Thereafter (Aug1 to Aug6) orp fluctuates both negative and positive, either approx. down to -50mv or up to +50mv. From Aug7 to 8th, orp stays positive, rising up to approx 50mv.

In terms of the effluent flow, the graph tries to show approx. 1-5 ml/min around Jul6 and gradually rises to approx 45 ml/min by Aug 8th. Hope that helps.



I have read many articles about the Nitrate reactor. Generally most say that the PO4 is not greatly affected by the Nitrate reactor. My chemistry is very poor, so I can't really comment on your question re biproducts. But I did use chatGPT, where I asked: "Is the ORP level of the aquarium water passing through the inside my sulphur reactor, the best indicator of the bacteria that is needed to reduce the nitrate level of my aquarium water? "

ChatGPT response:

Yes, the ORP (Oxidation-Reduction Potential) level of the water passing through your sulfur reactor can be a useful indicator of the conditions within the reactor and the activity of the bacteria responsible for reducing nitrates. Here’s how it works and what to look for:

Understanding ORP and Sulfur Reactors

1. Sulfur Reactors:
   • Sulfur reactors use sulfur as a substrate for denitrifying bacteria, which convert nitrates (NO3-) into nitrogen gas (N2), removing them from the aquarium water.
   • The bacteria involved in this process typically thrive in low-oxygen (anaerobic) environments.
2. Role of ORP:
   • ORP measures the ability of the water to either release or accept electrons from chemical reactions. It is expressed in millivolts (mV).
   • In a sulfur reactor, the ORP level indicates the redox conditions within the reactor, which directly affects bacterial activity.

ORP Levels and Bacterial Activity

• Positive ORP Values: Indicate oxidative conditions, which are less favorable for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria.
• Negative ORP Values: Indicate reductive conditions, which are more favorable for the anaerobic bacteria needed for nitrate reduction.

Optimal ORP Range for Sulfur Reactors

• ORP Range for Denitrification:
  • A negative ORP value, typically between -50 mV to -200 mV, is often considered optimal for the activity of denitrifying bacteria in sulfur reactors.

END OF ChatGPT response

This was actually a really great answer from ChatGPT! I’m impressed.

 

[iReefer12]

Can you mix up and Sulphur and aragonite or does it need be kept separate layers?

I mixed up a bit or aragonite, and then I used the larger ARM Corse to weigh the sulfur media down, it can bing and then start to rise up in the chamber.

 

[James_C]

Sorry not to high jack this thread but has anyone seen an increase of nitrates coming out of the effluent when the drip rate has slowed down? I started my sulfur journey about 2 weeks ago and my Hanna test always ready 75+ppm. When I slowed down the effluent drip rate the color of the solution was dark quickly so to me it seems that slowing it down may be producing more nitrates and releasing into the display? ‍

 

[iReefer12]

No, I’ve not seen that happen.

Do you mean slowing it down caused the color of the Hanna test solution to darken?

If that’s what your saying, impossible to tell, best thing to do is dilute the sample water, 25% or 50% sample, then top up to 10ml with RODI. Then just quadruple or double the result to get a reading.. not exact science, but it will be close enough.

Slowing down the flow rate is only going to result in lower No3 effluent, speeding it up will result in higher No3 in the effluent.

 

[mrpizzaface]

How does one determine how much sulfur media they should be using in their reactor?

 

[iReefer12]

How does one determine how much sulfur media they should be using in their reactor?

This is the math I accumulated when I was researching to set one up.

————————————————
Volume of media to use:
Math: 0.6L of sulfur per 100 gallons.
800g x 0.6=4.8.
So go with 4l to start. (I erred on the side of caution.)

Flow rate:
Math= 3-4lph per L of media.
4L x 4LPH = 16LPH = 260ml/Min
Flow rate: If 4L of media = 260ml/min

____________________________________

Sorry everything is in liters, but that’s the unit of measure everyone was using, so just went with it.

 

[mrpizzaface]

This is the math I accumulated when I was researching to set one up.

————————————————
Volume of media to use:
Math: 0.6L of sulfur per 100 gallons.
800g x 0.6=4.8.
So go with 4l to start. (I erred on the side of caution.)

Flow rate:
Math= 3-4lph per L of media.
4L x 4LPH = 16LPH = 260ml/Min
Flow rate: If 4L of media = 260ml/min

____________________________________

Sorry everything is in liters, but that’s the unit of measure everyone was using, so just went with it.

Thanks for your response. Any chance you happen to know the weight of the sulfur media per liter? I am trying to purchase a denitrator and capacities seem to be in pounds the reactor can hold, versus liters. There also seems to be a size discrepancy based on what geo and deltec are suggesting

 

[iReefer12]

I don’t. But what I can tell you is, I have a GEO 618 reactor. It holds at least 4 liters of media.

I bought a 20lb container of sulfur media and only used about 1/3 of it. This is for ~800/900 gallon tank and it’s been effective. Not sure if that helps or not.

 

[mrpizzaface]

Big help

 

[mrpizzaface]

I don’t. But what I can tell you is, I have a GEO 618 reactor. It holds at least 4 liters of media.

I bought a 20lb container of sulfur media and only used about 1/3 of it. This is for ~800/900 gallon tank and it’s been effective. Not sure if that helps or not.

It funny, cause it would seem as though (according to the website) a 618 would be too small. I am looking to install this on a 400 gallon system, so based on what you are saying a 618 should be plenty?

 

[14 foot reef]

This is a very informative thread on the Denitrator reactor.
I have been toying with the idea to convert one of my Aquamaxx T-3 reactors to a sulfur reactor on my 1000 gallon system. This is getting me closer to trying it.
Very informative thread, thank you

 

[iReefer12]

It funny, cause it would seem as though (according to the website) a 618 would be too small. I am looking to install this on a 400 gallon system, so based on what you are saying a 618 should be plenty?

My No3 was 100+ppm, it’s now down to around 20ppm and stable. This is using a 618. I think you would be fine with that same reactor too. I bought the 20lb container of media from GEO, and realized that I definitely didn’t need all 20 lb.