STN from hell, please help

[InactiveAcct]

Remember that corals have a delayed response to stress. You mentioned many things that happened in addition to the initial crash of nitrates.

Large water changes – drastically shifts tank parameters and depletes DOC and nutrients
Use of ROX – Aggressive use can strip DOC and trace elements
Changes in alkalinity
Sudden changes in Phosphate from 0.350 to something lower
Sudden changes in Nitrate from 0 to 10ppm
Dosing antibiotics

Each change individually is capable of inducing STN / RTN.

In my opinion, the most important thing to do is to stabilize the parameters, and wait it out. Unfortunately the situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.

When I have an issue with SPS, I like to reset my parameters to my normal parameter setpoints, and go into what I call “Save Mode” with the following checklist:

4 to 5 20% water changes over a few days
Alk to 7.5
Nitrate to 5 ppm
Phosphate to 0.050 ppm
No GAC
No GFO
No UV
Reduce lighting to <300 PAR
Verify good 100x flow
Verify salt SG to 34-35 ppt
Verify temperature 79.5
ICP test
Verify no pests
Dose Acropower if corals appear to be starved
Dose vinegar 18 mL/100 gal if corals appear to be starved
If RTN, then frag off healthy tissue
Test, test, test, and keep everything rock stable
Continue moderate water changes as necessary

Your setpoints will likely be different, but you get the idea.

This video explains some thoughts about the complexity of bacterial infections in corals.

Thank you for sharing, fascinating

 

[jeffyang]

I think you will be better off without adding anything to your tank at this point. Just keep the basic parameters stable and wait out.

 

[mhaley98]

I don’t believe there are any studies done to support your statement.
Especially I do not believe there is any scientific study that shows coral holobiont is not impacted by antibiotics. But if there are I would like to read them.

What one can say that so far the R2R experiments shows no ill effects. But corals do depend on bacteria and I am sure overuse or continuous use will lead to negative impacts. This is hobbyist playing with fire.

Also overuse, improper use will lead to antimicrobial resistance and that will be very unfortunate.

I agree. All antibiotics, like with humans, will kill both good and bad bacteria. The way that antibiotics work is that they target specific components of the bacterial cell wall and break them down to essentially make the cell wall explode. The antibiotic doesn't know what a good or bad bacteria is, and will kill all bacteria with that specific component regardless of the bacteria is beneficial or harmful in nature. There are different types of antibiotics that will kill different types of bacteria, because they target different characteristics/components of the cell walls that not all bacteria have.
This is exactly like what happens in the human body. Often when people take antibiotics to get rid of one bad strain of bacteria, the good ones die off as well, and then what can happen is opportunistic organisms, such as yeast, overgrow and create new problems.
I would be extremely cautious of using any antibiotics in a reef tank unless it is a last resort, since the health of our systems, and the livelihoods of our corals, depend on the good bacteria doing their jobs. If I were to use an antibiotic, I would do what the doctors recommend with humans, and dose good bacteria after a few hours of using the antibiotic, to replenish the system with the beneficial bacteria and prevent the overgrowth of opportunistic organisms.

 

[InactiveAcct]

thanks all for the thoughts, especially enjoyed hearing Salem talk about this topic on ReefBum and with ReefBeef over the past week - thanks for the recommendation.

I dosed second round of cipro a few days ago. I have noticed some positive trends. The recession of the forrest fire digi seems to have stopped and the zoanthids near it opened up slightly for first time in about two months. Recession of large spear mint Monti also immediately haulted. Possilopora continues to STN.

Params:
Alk 9.9 dKh (was 9.7 on 5/11, stabilized)
Nitrate: 15 ppm
PO4: .91 ppm, yikes! (Was .64 ppm, think dead coral is leaching it back into water column)

 

[Pod_01]

PO4: .91 ppm, yikes! (Was .64 ppm, think dead coral is leaching it back into water column)

From my experience, dead corals or portions of it are magnet for algae. Also the dead portion will rot and pollute the water.

So these days I chop any good portion and throw out the dead and hope for the best.

Good luck,

 

[moosevandyke]

All these ideas and bickering………. I’d stop the nopox and dose some nitrates.

Everyone else. People are allowed to share there opinion. OP can chose what he agrees with or doesn’t.

To summarize. Answer the OPs questions and move one. Save everything else for your pillow at night time.

It's funny isn't it. I mean it was all of sudden made about everybody else and not the original post. Kinda a bummer. thanks for keeping it honest.

 

[Northern Flicker]

From my experience, dead corals or portions of it are magnet for algae. Also the dead portion will rot and pollute the water.

So these days I chop any good portion and throw out the dead and hope for the best.

Good luck,

I agree with this. I don't have any kind of data to back it up, but I also have found anecdoatally that when I frag off the living parts, they often are fine, but if I leave the full coral in, it nearly 100% of the time completely dies off.

I've wondered if the dead flesh of the coral invites nasty things like cyano (I've seen it grow on dying skeletons when it's not present anywhere else) is like one extra stressors for the still living parts and just puts the nail in the coffin.

I saved my Monti spongodes this way - all 5 of the cut sections are recovering! Just gotta be patient for them to grow back into colonies now.

 

[InactiveAcct]

An update, the system is becoming more stable and tissue recession appears to have stopped in all coral except the pocillopora, which has definitely slowed down. After 2X Erythromycin and 2X Cipro treatments with no readily apparent negative effects I am relatively confident they are safe: fish, clams, snails, shrimp all did well and monti STN stopped immediately.

PO4 is back under control with GFO.

Had a turf algae outbreak but fixed about 75% of it with an hour of elbow grease.

Zoanthids are starting to open up again, may not seem like much but this is huge progress.


Pocillopora continuing to recede. I will cut off the healthy branches. Removed about 80% of red mushrooms this weekend, they have been happy with the high nutrients.


Lepto was never bothered by this whole ordeal. Turbinaria turned brown but hanging in there.


Definitely had an explosion of turf algae


Forrest Fire digi STN stopped but was pretty late in game by the time I started Cipro. I broke off the struggling-but-alive tips, see how they do. Ulva really likes dead coral tissue.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Keep fighting the good fight dude, lots of potential in those pics.

 

[InactiveAcct]

Been about a month since last update - things are going much better. Have not done much maintenance besides algae scraping. Main concern now is ulva crowding out / growing on some of the corals. I have trouble getting it off without damaging the coral, which is the last thing I want to do.

Progress photos using the large Christmas tree Monti as the indicator:

June 15, 2024


1 week later June 22, 2024 (bad pic)



Today 7/4/2024:

 

[ghostandhyde]

You fried your corals with the nopox. Do a water change, keep your tank stable, and don’t go and change a bunch of things. That will create a bunch of new problems for you. FYI, You can see corals die for several days after shocking your tank. It doesn’t mean your tank is getting worse and you need to make a bunch of sudden changes. Let your corals recover before you think about bringing your nutrients down. Aminos can help with recovery. If you want a carbon source with nitrate, dose zeostart. It will help with bringing phosphate down while also providing nitrate and carbon. With the corals you have in your tank, you can get away (for the most part) with having a higher phosphate level. LPS corals can do well with a higher phosphate level. SPS will be more of a challenge. Hope that helps.

 

[Dburr1014]

Glad to see this OP.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Been about a month since last update - things are going much better. Have not done much maintenance besides algae scraping. Main concern now is ulva crowding out / growing on some of the corals. I have trouble getting it off without damaging the coral, which is the last thing I want to do.

Progress photos using the large Christmas tree Monti as the indicator:

June 15, 2024


1 week later June 22, 2024 (bad pic)



Today 7/4/2024:

I would recommend loading the tank with mexican turbo snails. Theyll keep the coral clean with less damage and upkeep than manual removal