Specific questions for Bean Animal overflow plumbing

[Tigershark22]

Howdy everyone,
I have searched the forums and I can’t seem to find any answers related to my specific issues.
I am new to the hobby and don’t necessarily understand how to adjust the siphon or flow of the system. It is currently running and is quiet but I am only able to operate this way at the lowest output of the return pump with the return valve slightly closed and the drain valve completely open.

The flow still seems to be at its maximum capacity for the overflow and it doesn’t seem to be skimming off accumulated protein at the surface of the display tank.

I have set up a Modular Marine overflow for my 60gal DT with 20gal sump. The overflow is rated for 800gph but seemed a bit odd that it required 1/2” drains.
I am running a Jebao pump that is oversized but I still expected to be able to run it at more than 30% output (pump minimum). It’s rated for roughly 575gph at the 30% output with zero head pressure and I have approximately 6.5-7ft of head pressure. So it’s probably only pushing around 250gph and the overflow seems maxed. Any higher flow and the water rises above the secondary and begins attempting a second full siphon.

The drains run pretty deeply below the sump water level, I’m not sure what effect this has or if this is part of the problem.

I do believe I have the overflow itself plumbed exactly to specifications.

Any advice on how to get this tuned optimally would be greatly appreciated!

 

[KrisReef]

@BeanAnimal

Summoning the amazing Spector of quite over flow.

 

[Snoopy 67]

First -- trim the 2 return lines so they are no more than 1" below water when running.
This relieves back pressure especially on start up.
The emergency should be ABOVE the water so you can hear it & know somethings wrong.
My chart claims 1/2" will flow a max of 420GPH with minimal back pressure.
There should be a minimum of 6" height difference between the siphon drain & secondary if you have the room. A slow trickle down the secondary is normal.
Hope that helps.

 

[JoJosReef]

@BeanAnimal

Summoning the amazing Spector of quite over flow.

You have to say his name 3 times

 

[Tigershark22]

First -- trim the 2 return lines so they are no more than 1" below water when running.
This relieves back pressure especially on start up.
The emergency should be ABOVE the water so you can hear it & know somethings wrong.
My chart claims 1/2" will flow a max of 420GPH with minimal back pressure.
There should be a minimum of 6" height difference between the siphon drain & secondary if you have the room. A slow trickle down the secondary is normal.
Hope that helps.

Guess I should definitely start with the drain line depth. The emergency is above the water line.
I don’t think there’s room for that much separation between the primary and secondary in the box, unless I remove the primary standpipe entirely. But I think I had seen BeanAnimal page in a thread saying that isn’t how the design is supposed to operate so I’m unsure. Hoping he hops in for some input as well.

 

[PharmrJohn]

You have to say his name 3 times

@BeanAnimal

Summoning the amazing Spector of quite over flow.

........While looking in the mirror.

 

[areefer01]

Guess I should definitely start with the drain line depth. The emergency is above the water line.
I don’t think there’s room for that much separation between the primary and secondary in the box, unless I remove the primary standpipe entirely. But I think I had seen BeanAnimal page in a thread saying that isn’t how the design is supposed to operate so I’m unsure. Hoping he hops in for some input as well.

Did you trip the modular marine bulkhead fittings? Does that give you any more room? I don't remember what their instructions noted but remember when I looked at mine (using it on a 40 breeder) I thought to myself there is no way plumbing will fit in there with that much bulkhead fitting vs overflow space. I've not installed it yet so can't comment on install.

 

[Snoopy 67]

You might have to remove the primary, especially if you get a whirlpool effect with it higher up.
It will still run, as a full siphon.

 

[Tigershark22]

Did you trip the modular marine bulkhead fittings? Does that give you any more room? I don't remember what their instructions noted but remember when I looked at mine (using it on a 40 breeder) I thought to myself there is no way plumbing will fit in there with that much bulkhead fitting vs overflow space. I've not installed it yet so can't comment on install.

I did have to trim the bulkheads to get them to the recommended level. PVC cutter worked great

 

[Tigershark22]

You might have to remove the primary, especially if you get a whirlpool effect with it higher up.
It will still run, as a full siphon.

There is a little whirlpool in there I just noticed

 

[Tigershark22]

Howdy sir @BeanAnimal
Could really use your assistance with this one. Tried some suggestions above and it helped enough to increase the pump output by 1% lol. But it is still drawing water through the weir below surface level and leaving residuals calmly floating at the surface. I didn’t notice a difference in removing the primary standpipe, per one suggestion. With it inserted, it is at the bottom of the bulkhead.


Photos of my setup.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not sure that I understand the problem.

If the tank is not surface skimming then the water is not overflowing into the internal box and it is fully submerged. At the same time if the overflow box is not "full" then it is doing its job. In other words, the small dimension internal overflow and bulkheads leading to the external box can't keep up.....

Like water backing up at the pipe in a drainage ditch going under a road. If the pipe can't keep up, the drainage ditch fills.

Make sense?

 

[KrisReef]

Howdy everyone,
I have searched the forums and I can’t seem to find any answers related to my specific issues.
I am new to the hobby and don’t necessarily understand how to adjust the siphon or flow of the system. It is currently running and is quiet but I am only able to operate this way at the lowest output of the return pump with the return valve slightly closed and the drain valve completely open.

The flow still seems to be at its maximum capacity for the overflow and it doesn’t seem to be skimming off accumulated protein at the surface of the display tank.

I have set up a Modular Marine overflow for my 60gal DT with 20gal sump. The overflow is rated for 800gph but seemed a bit odd that it required 1/2” drains.
I am running a Jebao pump that is oversized but I still expected to be able to run it at more than 30% output (pump minimum). It’s rated for roughly 575gph at the 30% output with zero head pressure and I have approximately 6.5-7ft of head pressure. So it’s probably only pushing around 250gph and the overflow seems maxed. Any higher flow and the water rises above the secondary and begins attempting a second full siphon.

The drains run pretty deeply below the sump water level, I’m not sure what effect this has or if this is part of the problem.

I do believe I have the overflow itself plumbed exactly to specifications.

Any advice on how to get this tuned optimally would be greatly appreciated!

Ok
Today I looked up 1/2" pvc drain and it is supposed to pull 420gph. WIth these drains set up, you need to get the main drain pulling a siphon to approach 420gph. That doesn't happen right away, and the second drain may kick in to take up the slack. Let it run that way and see if the primary drain starts to siphon and pulls down the water going into the secondary.

I recently set up a two drain system and both were flowing for the first week or so, then on side kicked in and zero water is coming out of the overflow/emergency drain. I am also using a DC pump, so to start I kicked it on an let it run pulling both drains and eventually the main took over with a full siphon and the secondary went dry. Give it a try?

The other issue with overflows is that they have teeth to prevent fish from going over the falls. IF the teeth are too narrow (and flow is too slow) then you may not get the surface scum removed even if you get 800 gph blowing through the system. Hope that isn't the case, but that is the other variable in surface drains that is impacting your system, perhaps?

 

[Tigershark22]

I am not sure that I understand the problem.

If the tank is not surface skimming then the water is not overflowing into the internal box and it is fully submerged. At the same time if the overflow box is not "full" then it is doing its job. In other words, the small dimension internal overflow and bulkheads leading to the external box can't keep up.....

Like water backing up at the pipe in a drainage ditch going under a road. If the pipe can't keep up, the drainage ditch fills.

Make sense?
[/QUOTE

@BeanAnimal That makes sense. In that case, I believe the water is not overflowing into the internal weir box, just as you described. With the pumps on, the water level is exactly at the halfway point of the weir openings (pics for reference).

Inside the external box, the water level is as full as it will get without rising above the secondary and attempting a second siphon.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Is the water level in the internal box the same height or is there some drop?

When you turn up the return pump what happens? Does the water rise in the display but stay pretty much the same in the external, or does the external want to overflow?

Sorry - what size tank and how much flow are you trying to achieve? Those slots and box are not going to be ideal surface skimmers. You really need surface agitation in a tank like that.

 

[Tigershark22]

Is the water level in the internal box the same height or is there some drop?

When you turn up the return pump what happens? Does the water rise in the display but stay pretty much the same in the external, or does the external want to overflow?

Sorry - what size tank and how much flow are you trying to achieve? Those slots and box are not going to be ideal surface skimmers. You really need surface agitation in a tank like that.

60 gallon tank, was aiming for somewhere around 300-400gph until I get powerheads, which I will be soon. I have the return lines at the surface to try to help with surface agitation, but I’m definitely very new to this if you can’t tell. I genuinely appreciate your time and assistance.

The internal box seems like the water level may be slightly higher than the external. But it also seems that it is back flowing into the internal from the external.

When I increase the pump output, the water level raises in the external overflow, but doesn’t seem to raise much more in the tank. But I can’t increase the pump much without it wanting to full siphon the secondary and begin to gurgle.

 

[Tigershark22]

Ok
Today I looked up 1/2" pvc drain and it is supposed to pull 420gph. WIth these drains set up, you need to get the main drain pulling a siphon to approach 420gph. That doesn't happen right away, and the second drain may kick in to take up the slack. Let it run that way and see if the primary drain starts to siphon and pulls down the water going into the secondary.

I recently set up a two drain system and both were flowing for the first week or so, then on side kicked in and zero water is coming out of the overflow/emergency drain. I am also using a DC pump, so to start I kicked it on an let it run pulling both drains and eventually the main took over with a full siphon and the secondary went dry. Give it a try?

The other issue with overflows is that they have teeth to prevent fish from going over the falls. IF the teeth are too narrow (and flow is too slow) then you may not get the surface scum removed even if you get 800 gph blowing through the system. Hope that isn't the case, but that is the other variable in surface drains that is impacting your system, perhaps?

That’s interesting. I guess my thing is I don’t even know if it’s at full siphon or not, being so new to this.

 

[Tigershark22]

Is the water level in the internal box the same height or is there some drop?

When you turn up the return pump what happens? Does the water rise in the display but stay pretty much the same in the external, or does the external want to overflow?

Sorry - what size tank and how much flow are you trying to achieve? Those slots and box are not going to be ideal surface skimmers. You really need surface agitation in a tank like that.

Never mind on the backflow in the weir. I did not realize I was looking at the double sided teeth and water flowing in on both sides.

 

[DCR]

As an engineer that does hydraulic calculations on piping, I think you are just maxing out the capacity of the 1/2" drain piping. I tend to think these overflow box flow ratings are vastly exaggerated. Maybe it would do 800 gph with the water level up over the top of the teeth and two or three drains going full siphon. Not sure where the 420 gph is coming from, but I think 150-200 gph is a more realistic practical capacity of a 1/2" full siphon drain in most aquarium set-ups with the sump directly below the tank. I would not expect it to pass much more than that. You could consider enlarging the drain piping if you really want more flow - even if you have to live with the 1/2" bulkheads. I really do not like using anything less than 3/4" and even 1" for drain piping and bulkheads for a 60-gal tank. Although probably not practical at this point, a larger (longer) overflow with larger drains would be a better option. I like them to extend over most of the back of the tank with only the ends open for returns and powerheads to maximize surface skimming

 

[Tigershark22]

As an engineer that does hydraulic calculations on piping, I think you are just maxing out the capacity of the 1/2" drain piping. I tend to think these overflow box flow ratings are vastly exaggerated. Maybe it would do 800 gph with the water level up over the top of the teeth and two or three drains going full siphon. Not sure where the 420 gph is coming from, but I think 150-200 gph is a more realistic practical capacity of a 1/2" full siphon drain in most aquarium set-ups with the sump directly below the tank. I would not expect it to pass much more than that. You could consider enlarging the drain piping if you really want more flow - even if you have to live with the 1/2" bulkheads. I really do not like using anything less than 3/4" and even 1" for drain piping and bulkheads for a 60-gal tank. Although probably not practical at this point, a larger (longer) overflow with larger drains would be a better option. I like them to extend over most of the back of the tank with only the ends open for returns and powerheads to maximize surface skimming

That makes sense. I thought the 1/2” lines seemed undersized when purchasing, but Modular Marine had good reviews and I figured they knew better lol. But my guess is exactly as you mentioned, it would seem they have it rated for at least two drains at full siphon, and probably without any flow resistance from pipe bends. I noticed it has no issues handling flow when I cover the air hole on the durso and create the second siphon.

But I fixed my main concern of not skimming the surface. BeanAnimal’s elaboration of the system functionality helped to indirectly point me in the right direction. It seems my secondary drain was a bit too high, not allowing water to fall into the weir box but rather siphoning just beneath the surface. Lowering the secondary about 3/4” did the trick. No more buildup at the surface.