Seeking Advice: Battling Persistent Phosphate and Algae Issues in a Red Sea 425

[reefo420]

Aluminum is usually from cheap plastics. Plumbing, cheap pumps and accessories - like cheap China Knockoffs, but not always.

I don't know about Bismuth. Was that a German Battleship in WWII? Seriously, I have never even thought about it. My first guess is a testing error. This is likely better than what I can add:

Bismuth

Hi, Can anyone explain to me what Bismuth is, what is does and the effects it can have on coral when it’s high? I’ve been getting regular icp for a few months and all of sudden Bismuth has gone from undetectable (last three tests) to this test at 21.87µg/l? I’ve not done a water change in...

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i have a lousy wavemaker at the back thats an old chinese one, will throw it, got a new crossflow one and was thinking of keeping that to lift junk off of the bottom, will just bin it

 

[reefo420]

also is boron worth dosing? as for phosphate this water was a week without running GFO, so it's very very high, all the corals have recovered from the last gfo incident and i've put a smaller amount in a reactor now, my main 3 concerns are
1) copper
2) aluminum
3) phos

 

[jda]

I don't think that there is much chance that much copper unbound from araonite. From what I understand, the aragonite has to dissolve for this to happen. Even if it did, there is other aragonite that can bind it. Not sure why your value is over 7, the range is .2 to 5 and you are squarely in the green. I would suspect a test error here too. I would not do much about this unless you have a second way to verify this reading. Copper can sometimes be in supplements - some companies believe that it kills off zoox and can make corals contrast more in color... along with other metals.

As for aluminum from plastics, new ones can have them too. Cheap/free buckets at hardware centers, knockoff pumps, fresh PVC plumbing, etc. Sticking with the name brands appears to be better, but they cost more. Local here got aluminum from Jebao pumps - he is trustworthy, but I have not seen his numbers or processes. I believe it since they have to keep costs down somehow - stealing patents and IP can save a lot of R&D money, but there has to be more to it than that. Like Dr. RHF said, they can also come from the media that some use to lower no3.

 

[reefo420]

I don't think that there is much chance that much copper unbound from araonite. From what I understand, the aragonite has to dissolve for this to happen. Even if it did, there is other aragonite that can bind it. Not sure why your value is over 7, the range is .2 to 5 and you are squarely in the green. I would suspect a test error here too. I would not do much about this unless you have a second way to verify this reading. Copper can sometimes be in supplements - some companies believe that it kills off zoox and can make corals contrast more in color... along with other metals.

As for aluminum from plastics, new ones can have them too. Cheap/free buckets at hardware centers, knockoff pumps, fresh PVC plumbing, etc. Sticking with the name brands appears to be better, but they cost more. Local here got aluminum from Jebao pumps - he is trustworthy, but I have not seen his numbers or processes. I believe it since they have to keep costs down somehow - stealing patents and IP can save a lot of R&D money, but there has to be more to it than that. Like Dr. RHF said, they can also come from the media that some use to lower no3.

I do have a few jebaos, I didn't know they caused this and I'll try doing it on a different empty tank and do an icp test to see if that happens after a month or two, very interesting to see if it does, as for copper, a year ago it was sitting at 2ppm copper (yes in the display) with other a 100 pound of live rock, hundreds of corals ..etc, i was able to test it at 0 with a hanna after using seachem's copper remover a few times, and haven't tested it since, but I've done atleast x10 the tank's volume in water chances since so confused on how it's still high, as for phosphate what do u think can be done since there is so much rock and 90% of is 1 big 85 pound structure so it's almost impossible to take it out to clean the algae off ..etc so it doesn't leech back into water, chaeto seems to be reducing a good amount of phos, and now hopefully with this new reactor i'll be able to add gfo and changing that every 7 days and i'll do an icp test in 30 days and see where the levels are standing

 

[jda]

Forgive me if I have said this before, but small amounts of GFO changed every day is the most efficient and best way to use the media and lower the po4. Even if you use more, it is likely exhausted in a day if you use a reactor... the stuff works quickly. If you use too much you risk lowering po4 too lower and having it bounce back up - this up/down is what harms corals, not removing po4.

If you can effectively use filter socks, then Lanthanum Chloride works well and is cheaper. There are really good hobbyists who have reported death when dosing LC directly to their tanks - many others who have not. I would treat this seriously since these were not thumb suckers who are prone to not understanding what is happening in their tanks. It could be a brand thing, bad luck or whatever, but it has happened enough that it seems real, but not enough that anybody has any idea why. In any case, use the right socks and it appears that it is safe. Again, go slowly.

 

[reefo420]

Forgive me if I have said this before, but small amounts of GFO changed every day is the most efficient and best way to use the media and lower the po4. Even if you use more, it is likely exhausted in a day if you use a reactor... the stuff works quickly. If you use too much you risk lowering po4 too lower and having it bounce back up - this up/down is what harms corals, not removing po4.

If you can effectively use filter socks, then Lanthanum Chloride works well and is cheaper. There are really good hobbyists who have reported death when dosing LC directly to their tanks - many others who have not. I would treat this seriously since these were not thumb suckers who are prone to not understanding what is happening in their tanks. It could be a brand thing, bad luck or whatever, but it has happened enough that it seems real, but not enough that anybody has any idea why. In any case, use the right socks and it appears that it is safe. Again, go slowly.

i do have socks (since i have a reefmat roller) , how much gfo should i use daily? for a 110gal display with 0.4 phos, based on the icp results, what do u think is affecting my coral growth the most, coloration wise somehow they look great just like in the LFS, but slow groth on certain zoas mainly, chalice seems to be growing fast

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

also is boron worth dosing? as for phosphate this water was a week without running GFO, so it's very very high, all the corals have recovered from the last gfo incident and i've put a smaller amount in a reactor now, my main 3 concerns are
1) copper
2) aluminum
3) phos

Boron is worth supplementing if it is substantially low:

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

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Wow, what a useless color bar for copper. The value is above their wide recommended range, but it smack in the middle of their green zone on the color bar.

Copper is probably OK at that level (if accurate), but if it rises more, I'd probably use something like cuprisorb or metasorb or a Poly-Filter. Mine was 11-13 ppb at one point with no apparent issue.

 

[reefo420]

Boron is worth supplementing if it is substantially low:

Randy's Elements to Dose

In a previous article I discussed my thoughts on trace elements https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/randys-thoughts-on-trace-elements.951/ This article expands on that discussion by providing specific guidance for all elements one might dose. First...

www.reef2reef.com

Wow, what a useless color bar for copper. The value is above their wide recommended range, but it smack in the middle of their green zone on the color bar.

Copper is probably OK at that level (if accurate), but if it rises more, I'd probably use something like cuprisorb or metasorb or a Poly-Filter. Mine was 11-13 ppb at one point with no apparent issue.

sounds good i'm very happy with cuprisorb, i came back from a vacation and had to dose it at 2ppm in the display to save the remaining 8 fish, lost all the corals but 7 of these 8 fish are alive so it's worth it, it seems to have reducer it after using it twice to this low level, i'll do it again to get it lower but i think phos is the biggest concern now alongside the aluminum

 

[jda]

Do this...

Use 1/4 what they recommend for the GFO. Let it run for 24 hours. Test the output from the reactor and see if it matches the tank water. If so, then the GFO is used up. If the reactor output is lower, then give it a bit more time. Use this as a guideline moving forward.

In time, GFO can get covered in organics and the surface will be compromised and won't bind any more - this likely happens when in a bag in the sump. Use it quick and get it out. This will save you the most money.

If you don't have one already, get a Hannah Ultra Low Phosphorous Checker. Trust this more than ICP company - the water in the vials can interact and the po4 can change in shipping and stuff.

As for corals, it is just so hard to tell. I would trust your eyes. Some corals will not care at all about po4 from .4 to .6, but others might be hanging on and some might be suffering. This is one of the most hard things about reefing since there is such a wide range with coral types. I have some Z&P that could live in a sewer and others that start to melt at very low no3 and po4 levels.

 

[Lasse]

I ask because Al toxicity to fish is pH depended. Normally - it says pH below 6.5 so it has normally not seen as a problem in saltwater. However - recently it has been shown that there is toxic species of Al compounds that can be formed in pH above 8 and higher. Below 6.5 it is mainly the Al ion that is of concern - over 8 - it is the aluminate, Al(OH)4− ion that is of concern. However 2 times of your concentration at pH 9.5 did not give any acute toxicity to Atlantic salmon according to this report From the abstract

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) parr were exposed to aluminium under both steady state and non-steady state chemical conditions in alkaline water. Under alkaline (pH 9.5) steady state conditions, ∼350 μg Al l−1 (predominantly aluminate, Al(OH)4−) had no acute toxic effect on the salmon. The fish, however, showed a physiological response after 3 weeks of exposure (∼300% increase in blood glucose concentration, about 30% increase in blood haematocrit, and about 15% decrease in plasma Cl− concentration). No increase in toxicity was evident under non-steady state conditions, i.e. lowering Al solubility as pH was lowered from 9.5 to 7.5. The results indicate that the toxicity of the aluminate ion (Al(OH)4−) is low, and particularly lower than the corresponding toxicity of cationic Al hydroxides. The effects observed in fish exposed to Al-rich water at pH 9.5 were counteracted as Al solubility was decreased by lowering pH to 7.5. This is contrary to previous observations where Al solubility has been lowered by increasing pH from 5.0 to 6.5.

IMO in your pH and a concentration around 150 µg/L i would not be very worried. I have had around 170 µg/L without problems. If you use GFO (iron based) it will take Al too. When I use Al based phosphorus absorbers I normally get a rise in Al - when GFO - a decrease. That Jebao pumps should be responsible for Al release was a total new information for me. I have 5 Jebao pumps in my system - have not be able to relate my Al concentration to them - only to Al based phosphorus binders.

Was that a German Battleship in WWII?

Really @jda? The name was Bismarck

The copper concentration around 8 µg/L - just be aware of it I have been there and slightly above without any problems GFO will take care of that too IME

Phosphate - do not panic - look at your corals. If you want to lower it - @jda suggestion is good IMO. It will take care of some of the Al too - but use GFO (iron based phosphate binders)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reefo420]

Thank you for your help, the aluminium could be from a random backup cheap heater i keep in the sump, everything else is from red sea/jebao and nyos so i'll probably replace it since it's been there for nearly a year, as for that level as well as phos, the water sample was taken a week after using no GFO in a heaviely fed system

I ask because Al toxicity to fish is pH depended. Normally - it says pH below 6.5 so it has normally not seen as a problem in saltwater. However - recently it has been shown that there is toxic species of Al compounds that can be formed in pH above 8 and higher. Below 6.5 it is mainly the Al ion that is of concern - over 8 - it is the aluminate, Al(OH)4− ion that is of concern. However 2 times of your concentration at pH 9.5 did not give any acute toxicity to Atlantic salmon according to this report From the abstract


IMO in your pH and a concentration around 150 µg/L i would not be very worried. I have had around 170 µg/L without problems. If you use GFO (iron based) it will take Al too. When I use Al based phosphorus absorbers I normally get a rise in Al - when GFO - a decrease. That Jebao pumps should be responsible for Al release was a total new information for me. I have 5 Jebao pumps in my system - have not be able to relate my Al concentration to them - only to Al based phosphorus binders.


Really @jda? The name was Bismarck

The copper concentration around 8 µg/L - just be aware of it I have been there and slightly above without any problems GFO will take care of that too IME

Phosphate - do not panic - look at your corals. If you want to lower it - @jda suggestion is good IMO. It will take care of some of the Al too - but use GFO (iron based phosphate binders)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reefo420]

also one last question guys, out of all of thse, could they be effecting one of my urchins? some of the spines have fell of, it' moves (i've only seen it go 10-20 inches to the right or left each day when it used to do that much faster, i'd like to get m ore urchins and i'm worried about them dying too, fish seem fine

 

[bobnicaragua]

It sounds like there is a clear path to lowering phosphates.

I have a 135 gal, 6’ tank with 3 tangs a foxface and probably 50 snails.

Why not load up on snails?

 

[Lasse]

also one last question guys, out of all of thse, could they be effecting one of my urchins? some of the spines have fell of, it' moves (i've only seen it go 10-20 inches to the right or left each day when it used to do that much faster, i'd like to get m ore urchins and i'm worried about them dying too, fish seem fine

The short answer is that it is impossible to know if it so or not. Generally - inverts are more sensitive to metals and other toxic compounds compared with fish. IME - an urchin that loosing its spines - is not a good thing if it happens fast

Sincerely Lasse

 

[reefo420]

It sounds like there is a clear path to lowering phosphates.

I have a 135 gal, 6’ tank with 3 tangs a foxface and probably 50 snails.

Why not load up on snails?

it's only 4 foot, sadly, red sea 425 XL, i have a good size foxface and a medium kole tang, grown from an inch to around 3 inches now, i only have those 2 algae eaters,

It sounds like there is a clear path to lowering phosphates.

I have a 135 gal, 6’ tank with 3 tangs a foxface and probably 50 snails.

Why not load up on snails?

snails do not do much at all for me, tbf i only have 5, but i see 0 difference, these 2 urchins make visible change daily, i might get another small tang, and a few urchins, foxface eats some algae daily but prefers meaty food for some reasosn he's very fat but he's lazy about algae, and the tang can only do so much by it self with this much live rock, do you think i'll be able to put another tang in with this kole tang with no aggressive fights all the time?

 

[bobnicaragua]

it's only 4 foot, sadly, red sea 425 XL, i have a good size foxface and a medium kole tang, grown from an inch to around 3 inches now, i only have those 2 algae eaters,

snails do not do much at all for me, tbf i only have 5, but i see 0 difference, these 2 urchins make visible change daily, i might get another small tang, and a few urchins, foxface eats some algae daily but prefers meaty food for some reasosn he's very fat but he's lazy about algae, and the tang can only do so much by it self with this much live rock, do you think i'll be able to put another tang in with this kole tang with no aggressive fights all the time?

5 snails in a 4 foot tank aren’t going to do much. Add another 20 or 30 and see what that does. If it’s not enough, keep adding. Mix up the species.

It sounds like you are a heavy handed feeder, so the fish aren’t motivated to graze. I don’t think another fish is your solution, especially with high nutrients.

 

[reefo420]

5 snails in a 4 foot tank aren’t going to do much. Add another 20 or 30 and see what that does. If it’s not enough, keep adding. Mix up the species.

It sounds like you are a heavy handed feeder, so the fish aren’t motivated to graze. I don’t think another fish is your solution, especially with high nutrients.

after introducing ich i kind of like to do it untill i set up a few QT tanks since i just want the fish to remain healthy and well fed, and i've got a porcupine pufferfish that i look to keep well fed since it makes it pretty chill , i might just get the snails and urchins as there is enough algae for hundereds of cuc, what snails have u got and recommend? i've got a thin layer of algae but it keeps regrowing

 

[jda]

Since you dosed copper, I would get it out. Urchins losing spines has never been good for me. As said above, inverts are more sensitive to nearly everything than fish.

@Lasse - Bismarck and Turpitz = Bismuth

 

[reefo420]

Since you dosed copper, I would get it out. Urchins losing spines has never been good for me. As said above, inverts are more sensitive to nearly everything than fish.

@Lasse - Bismarck and Turpitz = Bismuth

copper was nearly a year ago and the urchin has been happy for months, it only started acting up last week but before that it was cleaning the whole tank pretty much every single day non stop, i'll do a 30% water change tomorrow and see if things get better

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

copper was nearly a year ago and the urchin has been happy for months, it only started acting up last week but before that it was cleaning the whole tank pretty much every single day non stop, i'll do a 30% water change tomorrow and see if things get better

It's a bit complicated, since the urchin may be ingesting copper-laden materials, not just exposed from the water.