Second Opinion on What causes this in SPS

[vetteguy53081]

From my experience sinking PO4 and prolong time at levels below 0.04 leads to what you describe.

View attachment 3129705

same coral now:
View attachment 3129717

Also NO3 and PO4 levels for reference
View attachment 3129718


One possible cause.
When PO4 is above 0.1 I did not observe this behaviour.

Low alk - also check calcium. You want 8-11. Alk and CA work together- assure both are balanced. PO4 , yes is high. Rowaphos or ChemiPure blue will bring it down safely and keep level in check

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Low alk - also check calcium. You want 8-11. Alk and CA work together- assure both are balanced. PO4 , yes is high. Rowaphos or ChemiPure blue will bring it down safely and keep level in check

Are you trying to kill all of his sps? Thin pale tissue is not from high po4 or low alk

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Low alk - also check calcium. You want 8-11. Alk and CA work together- assure both are balanced. PO4 , yes is high. Rowaphos or ChemiPure blue will bring it down safely and keep level in check

Have you ever even seen cc pink highlighter in person? This is what it looks like in alk 8-11 and +0.20 po4

 

[vetteguy53081]

Are you trying to kill all of his sps? Thin pale tissue is not from high po4 or low alk

Did I say it was from these numbers?
I mentioned the numbers being off. So did two others.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Did I say it was from these numbers?
I mentioned the numbers being off. So did two others.

Numbers are off?? Off from what?? The sps handbook recipe that doesn’t work more than half the time? The chasing ranges that kill more acros than climate change?? Those numbers??

 

[Keenan]

You guys have confused one another. Charlie is referencing my tank whereas vetteguy is referencing the readings from pods post (thinking that these are my numbers by mistake I’m guessing?).

ultimately, I know my methods and setup I’m using can be successful, and at the moment things are doing well for the most part. However, the fading tissue on some pieces like this highlighter is sketchy.

Was just looking for a second opinion as to whether it is the unstable/lower po4 or if it could just be that since this is a new tank that the old system was transferred into just a year ago, if that could still be causing this.

 

[Perry]

My back up tank went from 6.8dkh to 13.5dkh down to 5.1dkh, then back to my normal range of 7.3dkh. I didn't lose a single coral. I couldn't even tell you the ca, mg, p04, n03, or even Salinity. I have to agree with Charlie.
Again, products like KZ Zeospur are actually designed for exactly what your effect is, period...
This is why folks that associate pastel corals to p04 limitation simply lack the hands on experience. It's tissue density Again, a system with a high coral mass likely benefit trace dosing. Like I said, Abe from CE, and Tim, aka therman, have coral mass per volume like none other. Look at Charlie's tank, filled to the brim with coral. You are NOT the 1st person I have communicated with concerning AFR.
Here's what a CC Pink Highlighter looks like in .08ppm for P04 and 4.6ppm N03, under 10 t5. I don't think the tissue looks thin, lol

Edit: my alk is 7.3dkh

 

[Pod_01]

You guys have confused one another. Charlie is referencing my tank whereas vetteguy is referencing the readings from pods post (thinking that these are my numbers by mistake I’m guessing?).

ultimately, I know my methods and setup I’m using can be successful, and at the moment things are doing well for the most part. However, the fading tissue on some pieces like this highlighter is sketchy.

Was just looking for a second opinion as to whether it is the unstable/lower po4 or if it could just be that since this is a new tank that the old system was transferred into just a year ago, if that could still be causing this.

I think you are correct that there is some confusion and just to reiterate, my corals are doing well. I have no plan to reduce, chase, re-balance anything anytime soon. Also the main 3 Alk, PO4 and NO3 are not off and I am not chasing some theoretical/ popular or latest fad ratios or values.

I do believe the sinking PO4 to zero is contributing to your issue. I only had problems when I did that so I do try to keep PO4 above 0.1and I believe you are over filtering.
But honestly other factors might be contributing and with limited information that is my guess.

Anyways here are couple of pictures I took this morning (15k light or so) and the corals don’t have fading skin or are brown etc… I think they look good but I am still learning.

Good luck and I hope your corals get back on track.

 

[Keenan]

My back up tank went from 6.8dkh to 13.5dkh down to 5.1dkh, then back to my normal range of 7.3dkh. I didn't lose a single coral. I couldn't even tell you the ca, mg, p04, n03, or even Salinity. I have to agree with Charlie.
Again, products like KZ Zeospur are actually designed for exactly what your effect is, period...
This is why folks that associate pastel corals to p04 limitation simply lack the hands on experience. It's tissue density Again, a system with a high coral mass likely benefit trace dosing. Like I said, Abe from CE, and Tim, aka therman, have coral mass per volume like none other. Look at Charlie's tank, filled to the brim with coral. You are NOT the 1st person I have communicated with concerning AFR.
Here's what a CC Pink Highlighter looks like in .08ppm for P04 and 4.6ppm N03, under 10 t5. I don't think the tissue looks thin, lol
View attachment 3134695

Edit: my alk is 7.3dkh

I guess I’m a little confused with what you’re trying to say. You say you agree with Charlie, who expressed that he recommends elevated po4 and keeps his tank at 0.2 po4. Yet you then reference Abe from CE who has repeatedly said his po4 is almost undetectable and preaches low nutrients. And then you showed a picture of a healthy highlighter (nice piece by the way ) in what I would also call nutrients on the lower side (0.08 and 4.6).

Not sure exactly what your advice is sorry

 

[Keenan]

I think you are correct that there is some confusion and just to reiterate, my corals are doing well. I have no plan to reduce, chase, re-balance anything anytime soon. Also the main 3 Alk, PO4 and NO3 are not off and I am not chasing some theoretical/ popular or latest fad ratios or values.

I do believe the sinking PO4 to zero is contributing to your issue. I only had problems when I did that so I do try to keep PO4 above 0.1and I believe you are over filtering.
But honestly other factors might be contributing and with limited information that is my guess.

Anyways here are couple of pictures I took this morning (15k light or so) and the corals don’t have fading skin or are brown etc… I think they look good but I am still learning.
View attachment 3134739
View attachment 3134741

View attachment 3134742
View attachment 3134743

Good luck and I hope your corals get back on track.

Thanks Pod, going to fully open the AFR bypass and see if that helps things. Great pics btw

 

[Perry]

I guess I’m a little confused with what you’re trying to say. You say you agree with Charlie, who expressed that he recommends elevated po4 and keeps his tank at 0.2 po4. Yet you then reference Abe from CE who has repeatedly said his po4 is almost undetectable and preaches low nutrients. And then you showed a picture of a healthy highlighter (nice piece by the way ) in what I would also call nutrients on the lower side (0.08 and 4.6).

Not sure exactly what your advice is sorry

You are the 3rd person I know who understands reefing well, reporting issues with AFR. Other 2 buddies went to straight kalk and never looked back. My point is look other places than P04 concentration to tissue density. My 2nd point is these guys do not dose trace, despite a massive coral mass to volume.

 

[Keenan]

You are the 3rd person I know who understands reefing well, reporting issues with AFR. Other 2 buddies went to straight kalk and never looked back. My point is look other places than P04 concentration to tissue density. My 2nd point is these guys do not dose trace, despite a massive coral mass to volume.

To be clear, when I talk about AFR I'm talking about my automatic filter roller, not all for reef. I have used all for reef for 4 years with great results and will continue to use it. I do use kalk as well.

Thanks for the clarification. makes sense now and appreciate the advice

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I guess I’m a little confused with what you’re trying to say. You say you agree with Charlie, who expressed that he recommends elevated po4 and keeps his tank at 0.2 po4. Yet you then reference Abe from CE who has repeatedly said his po4 is almost undetectable and preaches low nutrients. And then you showed a picture of a healthy highlighter (nice piece by the way ) in what I would also call nutrients on the lower side (0.08 and 4.6).

Not sure exactly what your advice is sorry

I really don’t recommend elevated or low or whatever no3/po4 bc I don’t believe they matter. I show pics of my elevated levels to prove that they’re not a coral death/stress sentence. Elevated does not cause brown ugly corals…..quite the opposite in my case.
I recommend less stripping and less testing/reacting. Chasing nutrient stability with chemicals/media methods causes more harm than good ime.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

You are the 3rd person I know who understands reefing well, reporting issues with AFR. Other 2 buddies went to straight kalk and never looked back. My point is look other places than P04 concentration to tissue density. My 2nd point is these guys do not dose trace, despite a massive coral mass to volume.

Automatic fleece roller or
All for reef? All for reef carbon source has no impact on the bacterial/nitrification process. @Randy Holmes-Farley had a write up on it awhile back.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I guess I’m a little confused with what you’re trying to say. You say you agree with Charlie, who expressed that he recommends elevated po4 and keeps his tank at 0.2 po4. Yet you then reference Abe from CE who has repeatedly said his po4 is almost undetectable and preaches low nutrients. And then you showed a picture of a healthy highlighter (nice piece by the way ) in what I would also call nutrients on the lower side (0.08 and 4.6).

Not sure exactly what your advice is sorry

I wasn’t confused.

 

[Keenan]

Automatic fleece roller or
All for reef? All for reef carbon source has no impact on the bacterial/nitrification process. @Randy Holmes-Farley had a write up on it awhile back.

Good to know, thanks!

I wasn’t confused.

I was

 

[Pod_01]

Thanks Pod, going to fully open the AFR bypass and see if that helps things. Great pics btw

Just a suggestion, as you stabilize your PO4, you can try to use TM Plus-NP.
I used it once I realized that my best efforts at reducing PO4 resulted in killing coral or making them nice and brown. Now I know that is how not to do it.
During my recovery journey I dosed 1/4 recommended dose and corals improved and eventually PO4 levels improved.

 

[Perry]

Good to know, thanks!

I was

Maybe I put the wrong mushroom powder in my protein shake this morning, lol