Sales forum has gotten out of hand

[lynn.reef.nerd]

I applaud you!… you are doing it right!
I do doubt that there are many more basement businesses that are doing it legally…

It amazes me how many "businesses" out there post they are starting a business, get a facebook business page, put up a website to sell with no tax EIN number, no state license, no tax collection license, NOTHING.

 

[anthonymckay]

I guess you didn't catch the part about basically illegal w/o an aquaculture license. Florida fish and wildlife not ones to be trifled with. Google it... people have gone to jail. Some of our esteemed local shops have been alleged to have reported people. "All persons engaging in commercial aquaculture are required to obtain the certificate. Aquaculture products include: fish, shellfish, amphibians, reptiles, invertibrates, plants, and corals. The certificate number is required to be on all aquaculture products from harvest to point of sale." Problem is if you sell anything you are commercial. Ask the guy busted for selling his tang on Craigs list. Even "trades" are a gray area for enforcement.

You only mentioned "sales" in your initial post and that frag swaps were no longer actual "swaps" anymore, so I was responding to that. If trades are a gray area as well, that's unfortunate.

 

[MnFish1]

It amazes me how many "businesses" out there post they are starting a business, get a facebook business page, put up a website to sell with no tax EIN number, no state license, no tax collection license, NOTHING.

What people don't seem to understand - is that though it seems easy to just collect cash, etc. the new rules with PayPal and Venmo - as well as the proposed legislation that allows any transaction over $600 to be questioned after the IRS looks at your bank statement. We had a litter of puppies a couple years ago - quite expensive show-quality puppies - I called the state and asked - because it was thousands of dollars - she said - you're required to ask for sales tax for 'in-state' residents. Out of state residents are required to report the purchase and pay use tax. Now - If it's a 30$ item all good - but with some of these corals going for $$$$$$ - if I was selling them - I would certainly be keeping records. And again - this goes for trading as well. You have to report the income you received from the barter - then you can subtract out your expenses. Example. I have a 1000 Walt Disney Coral - I agree to trade for a 1000 xxx coral. You have to report the 1000$ as barter income. There are expenses you can subtract - but - they (the govt wants their cut as well). If you do this once every 6 months - well - still should be reported - but no one will know - if you're doing multiple PayPal transactions/month - its likely to be an issue (NOTE - non-accountant opinion)

 

[lynn.reef.nerd]

What people don't seem to understand - is that though it seems easy to just collect cash, etc. the new rules with PayPal and Venmo - as well as the proposed legislation that allows any transaction over $600 to be questioned after the IRS looks at your bank statement. We had a litter of puppies a couple years ago - quite expensive show-quality puppies - I called the state and asked - because it was thousands of dollars - she said - you're required to ask for sales tax for 'in-state' residents. Out of state residents are required to report the purchase and pay use tax. Now - If it's a 30$ item all good - but with some of these corals going for $$$$$$ - if I was selling them - I would certainly be keeping records. And again - this goes for trading as well. You have to report the income you received from the barter - then you can subtract out your expenses. Example. I have a 1000 Walt Disney Coral - I agree to trade for a 1000 xxx coral. You have to report the 1000$ as barter income. There are expenses you can subtract - but - they (the govt wants their cut as well). If you do this once every 6 months - well - still should be reported - but no one will know - if you're doing multiple PayPal transactions/month - its likely to be an issue (NOTE - non-accountant opinion)

I'm also interested in the bartering rule.
Lets say I buy a car (black), a friend buys the same car (red). we both pay taxes on them.
If i want to trade with him because I prefer red, we both still need to pay taxes again?

 

[MnFish1]

I'm also interested in the bartering rule.
Lets say I buy a car (black), a friend buys the same car (red). we both pay taxes on them.
If i want to trade with him because I prefer red, we both still need to pay taxes again?

Again I'm not an accountant - the income each of your receive need to be reported to the IRS - and taxes paid - minus whatever expenses you might have. Again - Not an accountant. In other words - the government wants to get their piece according to what I've read

 

[lynn.reef.nerd]

Again I'm not an accountant - the income each of your receive need to be reported to the IRS - and taxes paid - minus whatever expenses you might have. Again - Not an accountant. In other words - the government wants to get their piece according to what I've read

Because I know that you can "sell" to another business and not collect sales tax because you are putting the burden of tax collection on them of they have a sales tax license (MD).

 

[MnFish1]

Because I know that you can "sell" to another business and not collect sales tax because you are putting the burden of tax collection on them of they have a sales tax license (MD).

Perhaps true - However - IMHO - again - non- accountant - they are required to collect sales tax from either you - or pay it themselves

 

[bert236]

Bert you haven’t made a single sale thread.

How does that invalidate my opinion?

If you are not managing a business you do not have overhead. You have personal expenses. Make a business if you want to charge retail prices.

Not everyone selling out of their basement is doing it for cash. I know people with registered businesses they run out of their house that look and function exactly like the people selling on here or Facebook. Jason fox runs his setup out of his house and Im pretty sure sells on here so should he dump his corals at a loss or he gets a pass because of his reputation? You have no way to gauge anyone's situation most times on here and even as a hobbyist I don't see why they should sell dirt cheap so only you benefit. For some reason you seem to have endless money or something and fault people for trying to cover personal expenses or turning a profit. Some of us don't have endless money to burn and dump into the hobby and it helps to actually be able to make some of it back especially if you are running or trying to build up to a profitable business.

 

[brittp21]

In sales forum use the Orange filter tab, top right. Click prefix, drop down box will list all states. Select Fla.

Thank you!

 

[Asagi]

LOL. - I'm having a discussion - You don't have to go searching through the forums looking for my 'sales' - I already posted that I haven't sold anything on the forums. I have sold plenty of things on Ebay though - equipment - and I always start my listings at a Dollar - and at the end often get higher prices than those with a buy-it now price.

I'm not sure why you seem to have made the 'rule' or 'comment' on multiple peoples responses as to 'you have no sales'. Why do you care vis a vis the original post?

It doesn’t make any sense to me to defend high prices if you’re not benefiting. Again, who/what are you defending?

 

[MnFish1]

It doesn’t make any sense to me to defend high prices if you’re not benefiting. Again, who/what are you defending?

And it doesn't make sense to me that you are criticizing a free market system. SO - I guess I'm defending R2R for having the forum set up the way they do. I guess I'm defending the people that are selling things for profit - and I guess I'm defending the people that are nipping frags off of corals they would throw away and selling them for less then market price. I guess I'm defending 'the way it is'. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything for a price they do not want to pay. The idea that some kind of 'movement' to get people to lower their online prices will do anything is faulty - so - it's not me defending anything per se - its criticizing your logic. Best wishes

 

[Asagi]

And it doesn't make sense to me that you are criticizing a free market system. SO - I guess I'm defending R2R for having the forum set up the way they do. I guess I'm defending the people that are selling things for profit - and I guess I'm defending the people that are nipping frags off of corals they would throw away and selling them for less then market price. I guess I'm defending 'the way it is'. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything for a price they do not want to pay. The idea that some kind of 'movement' to get people to lower their online prices will do anything is faulty - so - it's not me defending anything per se - its criticizing your logic. Best wishes

Please re-read the topic from my first post.

 

[Reefing102]

I may be wrong, but just reading everything, I said my piece on my initial thoughts earlier, but I think the real issue is R2R rules and the appearance of the lack of enforcement of rules. I get people may be “breaking even” to cover their own additional costs but I think the real issue is there are sellers, who have regular sales threads, that appear to be selling for commercial purposes who are not sponsors. I get coral can grow fast in a mature system so the occasional or monthly pruning sales are a necessity and feel free to charge what you like, close to retail I likely just won’t buy it.

At the same time, just a hypothetical example, when you post 20-30+ pieces of torch or acanthos or Gonis or other coral, each week or month, that just screams commercial.

I know torch corals generally do not grow excessively fast, but can grow fastish but not where you have an extra 20-30+ pieces a month.

 

[MnFish1]

Independent sellers with zero overhead, possibly no company structure (LLC formation, etc) and no storefront (digital or otherwise) are charging at or above market for livestock.

Disagree - you have no definition of what an 'independent seller is'. You say 'possibly' no structure, etc.

Disagree - you say 'are charging at or above market' - in reality - what you mean is 'charging more than you want to pay'. In reality - they are 'making the market'.

I hope everyone understands that the heart of this hobby are in person frag swaps and below market peer to peer sales in a digital setting. LFS visits and online retailer shopping is also fun, BUT not what makes the community.

The heart of the hobby IMHO is the love of fish/coral keeping - and has nothing to do with 'below market peer to peer sales'. It's Only your definition of 'community' - not the definition that most people in the community subscribe to. For example - I have never been to a 'frag swap', I have never bought coral, fish online - yet am part of the community.

All of you are ruining the market. Importers and retailers will up their prices to follow this trend.

This is just an opinion - and you seem to be dead set on dressing down anyone that disagrees with your opinion. No one is 'ruining the market'.

 

[brandon429]

as I'm reading, it seems we have a split down the middle for advocates of a free market system vs advocates of a managment/gov't-regulated market system, for frags in the sales forum

is that a fair assessmnt

I don't think those debates ever end or reach agreement between the parties>

 

[MnFish1]

I may be wrong, but just reading everything, I said my piece on my initial thoughts earlier, but I think the real issue is R2R rules and the appearance of the lack of enforcement of rules. I get people may be “breaking even” to cover their own additional costs but I think the real issue is there are sellers, who have regular sales threads, that appear to be selling for commercial purposes who are not sponsors. I get coral can grow fast in a mature system so the occasional or monthly pruning sales are a necessity and feel free to charge what you like, close to retail I likely just won’t buy it.

At the same time, just a hypothetical example, when you post 20-30+ pieces of torch or acanthos or Gonis or other coral, each week or month, that just screams commercial.

I know torch corals generally do not grow excessively fast, but can grow fastish but not where you have an extra 20-30+ pieces a month.

Curious - 1) is there a rule that this is 'disallowed'. 2) who is being forced to buy these items?

 

[MnFish1]

as I'm reading, it seems we have a split down the middle for advocates of a free market system vs advocates of a managment/gov't-regulated market system, for frags in the sales forum

is that a fair assessmnt

I don't think those debates ever end or reach agreement between the parties>

No - since the second scenario is impossible to achieve. Who will be the government regulated market? How will they regulate it? And Lots of people are complaining about people selling used tanks, etc - for just a little less than retail.

 

[Reefing102]

Curious - 1) is there a rule that this is 'disallowed'. 2) who is being forced to buy these items?

There is a rule that commercial posting is not allowed

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/selling-trading-forum-rules-please-read-before-posting.115471/ - 5th bullet point

I agree no one is being forced, and I don’t like to see the retail prices in hobbyist sales I just don’t buy them. I also just think it’d be nice to see hobbyists helping hobbyists in the sense of lower prices but I also understand that’s not the point anymore

 

[MnFish1]

There is a rule that commercial posting is not allowed

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/selling-trading-forum-rules-please-read-before-posting.115471/ - 5th bullet point

I agree no one is being forced, and I don’t like to see the retail prices in hobbyist sales I just don’t buy them. I also just think it’d be nice to see hobbyists helping hobbyists in the sense of lower prices but I also understand that’s not the point anymore

Fantastic - then the issue here - is that apparently some people thing the rule isn't being enforced? Otherwise - I don't see anything that prevents person XXX who is on a new forum (as proposed earlier) from doing the same thing they are now (if they are doing it lol). Seems the only solution is a free Frag forum and a Frag forum for cost .

 

[Asagi]

Fantastic - then the issue here - is that apparently some people thing the rule isn't being enforced? Otherwise - I don't see anything that prevents person XXX who is on a new forum (as proposed earlier) from doing the same thing they are now (if they are doing it lol). Seems the only solution is a free Frag forum and a Frag forum for cost .

This and a commercial sales forum. Stores/Retailers should not post or reply to WTB in the sales forum.