Relation between Coraline+ Snails & PH

[MrWanted]

Hi everyone,

Is there a proven relationship between pH & kh stabilization and the presence of coralline and snails in the reef tank?


In other words:

Do coraline and snails affect PH in the reef tank?

With kind regards,

MrWanted

 

[Dan_P]

Hi everyone,

Is there a proven relationship between pH & kh stabilization and the presence of coralline and snails in the reef tank?


In other words:

Do coraline and snails affect PH in the reef tank?

With kind regards,

MrWanted

Algae in general can raise pH when photosynthesizing, but I don’t know whether there is ever enough Coralline in an aquarium to have this effect. As for snails, they are like any other organism the respires and lowers the pH by generating CO2. Whether pH is affected depends on the number snails. For the usual number occupying a reef aquarium, the effect could be undetectable.

 

[V_Sh]

Hi everyone,

Is there a proven relationship between pH & kh stabilization and the presence of coralline and snails in the reef tank?


In other words:

Do coraline and snails affect PH in the reef tank?

With kind regards,

MrWanted

Algae in general can raise pH when photosynthesizing, but I don’t know whether there is ever enough Coralline in an aquarium to have this effect. As for snails, they are like any other organism the respires and lowers the pH by generating CO2. Whether pH is affected depends on the number snails. For the usual number occupying a reef aquarium, the effect could be undetectable.

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

 

[Hitman66]

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

Hi new member

 

[Skywater]

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

Very good information. Keeping living things in optimum condition. Finding balance in each individual ecosystem.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

Wow very thorough yet understandable explanation. Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

So, the OP’s question was really just a setup for this long post?

 

[V_Sh]

So, the OP’s question was really just a setup for this long post?

Good answers are detailed scientific ones (at least I think so) LOL

I appreciate it if you share your precious experience or opinions also.

 

[Dan_P]

Good answers are detailed scientific ones (at least I think so) LOL

I appreciate it if you share your precious experience or opinions also.

This does not answer my original question though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

I don’t disagree with most of what you wrote, but I expect that coralline causes a net pH boost due to photosynthesis (although it will cause a pH decline at night).

In short, coralline can be the biggest alk user in a pure soft coral tank, using as much as 2 dKH per day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As to snails, they would always be pH lowering (like all nonphotosynthetic organisms) a very small (perhaps usually undetectable ) user of alk as they make their shells.

 

[V_Sh]

I don’t disagree with most of what you wrote, but I expect that coralline causes a net pH boost due to photosynthesis (although it will cause a pH decline at night).

In short, coralline can be the biggest alk user in a pure soft coral tank, using as much as 2 dKH per day.

Hi, thanks for participating.

If by 2 dKH you mean what I calculated up there, I didn't mean that, 2dKH is a massive amount for example for a 100Liters tank 2dKH is roughly equal to 3600 mg of Calcium Carbonate

I calculated that each square centimeter of GROWING coralline fix about 2mg of Ca/Mg Carbonate each day.

By considering that a mid size live rock can easily have 100 square centimeter of coralline on it and 500 cm2 of coralline is a fare amount for a 100 L tank then we can consider 16dKH of Carbonate fixation each month for this tank (this is just for highly active growing coralline like an old proffesional reef tank, and usually happens in coral farming)

I do agree with you about snails, this example without coralline is not worth considering and I mostly talked about corallines.

but we should consider that snails eat photosynthesising algae and do respiration and also build up shells .
and it matters how many snails you have and how actively they are growing, some times the algae eater of the tank is not only snails but sometimes it is.

So let's imagine a tank with 2 surgeons and 2 cleaning blennies and 1 sand cleaning goby and 2 butterflies, these fish will increase the KH of the tank easily. (not huge amount but considerable every month)

This tank is not a reef tank and let's say no coralline it has, then we should change the water to keep the KH staible, Am I right?

Or we can have actively growing creature that will use the KH (I prefer coralline)
again everything matters, filtering media, skimmer, refugium and...

But you are right, number of snails that is used by aquarists is few, but is that the best method?
Manipulating the light for controling algae is a usual one, but that won't build the ecosystem.

At the current method we prevent algae by lowering the nutrients or manipulating the light, so barely you see a tank with actively growing snails as they have almost no algae to eat.

I'll share the picture of my customer's tank wich I setuped it as soon as I visit it again

_8 months old
_No algae
_plenty amount of NO3 and PO4
_white intense lighting
_and snails are thriving and propagating (eating algae as much as possible)
_corallines are growing


But there are too many good ways to keep a beautiful tank as you know (we can just do massive water changes)

Your opinion is of great importance, I'll be happy if you share

This does not answer my original question though.

If you meant that I prepared the answer formerly, no I didn't
we just bring the controversial topic to the forum to learm from others also, and share some opinion

Your opinion matters also. let us know, please

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi, thanks for participating.

If by 2 dKH you mean what I calculated up there, I didn't mean that, 2dKH is a massive amount for example for a 100Liters tank 2dKH is roughly equal to 3600 mg of Calcium Carbonate

I calculated that each square centimeter of GROWING coralline fix about 2mg of Ca/Mg Carbonate each day.

By considering that a mid size live rock can easily have 100 square centimeter of coralline on it and 500 cm2 of coralline is a fare amount for a 100 L tank then we can consider 16dKH of Carbonate fixation each month for this tank (this is just for highly active growing coralline like an old proffesional reef tank, and usually happens in coral farming)

I do agree with you about snails, this example without coralline is not worth considering and I mostly talked about corallines.

but we should consider that snails eat photosynthesising algae and do respiration and also build up shells .
and it matters how many snails you have and how actively they are growing, some times the algae eater of the tank is not only snails but sometimes it is.

So let's imagine a tank with 2 surgeons and 2 cleaning blennies and 1 sand cleaning goby and 2 butterflies, these fish will increase the KH of the tank easily. (not huge amount but considerable every month)

This tank is not a reef tank and let's say no coralline it has, then we should change the water to keep the KH staible, Am I right?

Or we can have actively growing creature that will use the KH (I prefer coralline)
again everything matters, filtering media, skimmer, refugium and...

But you are right, number of snails that is used by aquarists is few, but is that the best method?
Manipulating the light for controling algae is a usual one, but that won't build the ecosystem.

At the current method we prevent algae by lowering the nutrients or manipulating the light, so barely you see a tank with actively growing snails as they have almost no algae to eat.

I'll share the picture of my customer's tank wich I setuped it as soon as I visit it again

_8 months old
_No algae
_plenty amount of NO3 and PO4
_white intense lighting
_and snails are thriving and propagating (eating algae as much as possible)
_corallines are growing


But there are too many good ways to keep a beautiful tank as you know (we can just do massive water changes)

Your opinion is of great importance, I'll be happy if you share



If you meant that I prepared the answer formerly, no I didn't
we just bring the controversial topic to the forum to learm from others also, and share some opinion

Your opinion matters also. let us know, please

I didn’t mean any calculation. I know of soft coral only tanks with lots of coralline algae that consume 2 dKH every day, and I attribute most of that to the coralline algae consumption.

 

[MrWanted]

Hi,

Yeah, there are relations but not due to photosynthesis or respiration.


Some of the most important salts in seawater are Hydrogencarbonates and Carbonates which in aquarium keeping we refer to as KH, also have a quite important role in marine ecosystem.

A considerable part of marine pH comes from Carbonates (these compounds are well-known basic salts) and the major users of these compounds are invertebrates and algae with calcium skeletons like coralline algae, Corals, snails, and even cephalopods like sepia have calcium carbonate skeletons.

so as these organisms fix the calcium and magnesium carbonate in the seawater the KH and pH can be decreased; we usually add KH and pH buffers together to an aquarium and also some products are said to act as both KH and pH buffers because it's hard to separate these two measurements.

Because numbers matter, we know that more than 90% of snail shells consist of Calcium Carbonate and almost 100% of coralline algae skeleton consists of Ca/Mg carbonate we also know that each square centimeter of coralline algae fixes about 90mg of inorganic Carbon (Carbonates) each year and by a simple calculation we find that each square centimeter of corallines fix about 750mg of Calcium/Magnesium Carbonate (12% of the CaCO3 mass is Carbon atom so 90÷0.12=750) then we can conclude that each square centimeter of corallines fix 2mg of calcium carbonate (750÷365=2.05) each day, although this is true but not essentially in the aquarium because the efficiency of coralline growth is higher in oceans, but at least we know that an aquarium in its climax has plenty square centimeter of corallines to fix the Carbonates so it will decrease the KH then pH.

you can test this quite simply, a soft-coral tank with many corallines on the rocks will show you a decrease in KH and pH also, we know that soft corals need a trace amount of Carbonates, so where does Ca/Mg carbonates go? any carbonate-fixing creature just extracted the hydrogen carbonate from the water and fixed it to carbonate.

Sometimes pH of the tank increases to more than 8.4 and you can consider that, by having enough carbonate-fixing animals or algae you can benefit from the control of pH and just enjoy watching how fast their shells/skeletons grow.

Also, consider that keeping the corallines and snails alive is way different from keeping them in a well-managed aquarium where they can thrive.

Coralline algae can withstand pH 7.8 and KH<7.5 for quite a long time without any growth, I just talked about a well-managed aquarium with growing snails/corallines.

It may be interesting for you that Fishes are a reasonable source of carbonate production in the oceans and they contribute 3 to 15% of total oceanic carbonate production especially fish species that nip at live rocks or any carbonate hard material in the sea, like Ctenochaetus strigosus that can be available in an aquarium.
so let's imagine a tank with many fish and no carbonate-fixing creatures like snails or corallines the pH and KH can easily rise (although no one cares because very few people test these in Fish-only tanks regularly and also water changes just set the parameters to the standards or near them) but it happens, and method of keeping an aquarium matters.

Aquarists usually keep parameters stable by water change, but that's not the only thing that we should do; creating a complete ecosystem DOES MATTER, and the most successful aquarists are those who are seeking to create an ecosystem not just keep things within the range (you see many aquarists enjoying their tank and some just running around to keep the things together)


so if we are looking to create an ecosystem we should always consider the Carbonate cycle, then we can achieve a beautiful tank in its climax with many creatures thriving in it.
Snail growth and production are really high but you can just see them thriving in a well-managed aquarium (We don't talk about just keeping them alive)


My customers begin to see Turbo snail babies just after 5-6 months of keeping them (as I usually sell big-size snails they are mature) the baby snails just become the size of a pea after about 5 months. (so this means a thriving aquarium)
you may not see snail hatchlings if you have many predatory fish like wrasses.

we can discuss a lot about the kind of media that is used in the tank or carbon dioxide intake of the skimmer or photosynthesis (refugium matters) and respiration effects also, everything matters.

Here you can read about friends' experiences with high pH and ask them also; pH higher than 8.4 is quite regular in a professional tank and many things can cause this, like reactors or the amount of additives that someone uses or a refugium. (they have many carbonate-fixing creatures and add plenty of hydrogen carbonate so they have a pH higher than 8.4 and enjoy watching their aquarium thriving)
any pH between 8.1 and 8.6 is considered to be really good.

but the short answer is yes the KH and pH decrease due to shell/skeleton making of creatures like coralline algae or snails.

check the hyperlinks to see the references and for further reading.
Bests,

@Daddy-o Could you please share your valuable experiences? appreciate

So in short it doesn't have any delectable effect.

Case closed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So in short it doesn't have any delectable effect.

Case closed.

What is “it” in that sentence? And detectable effect on what?

 

[MrWanted]

As to snails, they would always be pH lowering (like all nonphotosynthetic organisms) a very small (perhaps usually undetectable ) user of alk as they make their shells.

Thanks Randy

Indeed the effect is undectable. So what led me to post the thread? Well, one of the guys on our telegram group had questions about high PH namely 8.57. We made a point that this high ph is a calibration problem or other problems with measuring instrument. But @V_Sh insisted that growing coroline and adding more snails would solve the problem. Then he insisted on moving the discussion to R2R. Just don't ask me why.

Again thanks for you time

 

[MrWanted]

What is “it” in that sentence? And detectable effect on what?

Undetectable ffect of snails on tank PH

 

[V_Sh]

Thanks Randy

Indeed the effect is undectable. So what led me to post the thread? Well, one of the guys on our telegram group had questions about high PH namely 8.57. We made a point that this high ph is a calibration problem or other problems with measuring instrument. But @V_Sh insisted that growing coroline and adding more snails would solve the problem. Then he insisted on moving the discussion to R2R. Just don't ask me why.

Again thanks for you time

So you mean all the friend experiencing pH higher than 8.4 in this threat have calibration problems?

Practical maximum pH?

I've got a question that I cant seem to find a good answer to, and I know someone on here will have one! ;-) Lets say we have a reef tank, running a high ph salt, for example red sea coral pro that at 35ppt mixes to 8.5 pH. Then say we took that reef tank and stuck it outside in the country and...

www.reef2reef.com

And you don't accept that corilline use dKH and will lower the pH

I didn’t mean any calculation. I know of soft coral only tanks with lots of coralline algae that consume 2 dKH every day, and I attribute most of that to the coralline algae consumption.

Wow thanks for sharing using 2dKH by coralline each day means they are blooming.

I would appreciate sharing the photo of the tank if possible

 

[MrWanted]

So you mean all the friend experiencing pH higher than 8.4 in this threat have calibration problems?

Practical maximum pH?

I've got a question that I cant seem to find a good answer to, and I know someone on here will have one! ;-) Lets say we have a reef tank, running a high ph salt, for example red sea coral pro that at 35ppt mixes to 8.5 pH. Then say we took that reef tank and stuck it outside in the country and...

www.reef2reef.com

And you don't accept that corilline use dKH and will lower the pH


Wow thanks for sharing using 2dKH by coralline each day means they are blooming.

I would appreciate sharing the photo of the tank if possible

You are a master in playing with words with enough time to keep it going....

Just read everything again. I've had enough.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you mean all the friend experiencing pH higher than 8.4 in this threat have calibration problems?

Practical maximum pH?

I've got a question that I cant seem to find a good answer to, and I know someone on here will have one! ;-) Lets say we have a reef tank, running a high ph salt, for example red sea coral pro that at 35ppt mixes to 8.5 pH. Then say we took that reef tank and stuck it outside in the country and...

www.reef2reef.com

And you don't accept that corilline use dKH and will lower the pH


Wow thanks for sharing using 2dKH by coralline each day means they are blooming.

I would appreciate sharing the photo of the tank if possible

The one I am specifically thinking of was the tank of a reef central member Bertoni who took over moderating the Reef Chemistry forum when I stopped doing that. I don’t have a picture handy but you can probably find one there.