Red Planet issue

[Syntax1235]

May I ask what dosage the melathion label says to use (for garden pests) and have you tried that concentration in aquarium water for the dips? I would think that dosage might be a good starting point to start playing around with.
I know you are trying the KCl and I really hope that works for you since KCl would make life much easier, but I feel more optimistic about the malathion working. I'm saying this because of the success I had with Dyacide that I wrote about recently for a very resistant tegastes species that I called a "brown bug" (and another organophosphate I used for a fish isopod many years ago). I should add that I have no experience with KCl, though.

The KCL hasn't arrived yet so I just started experimenting with the Malathion, it is a 50% solution mixed with Petroleum distillate. The dosage says two tablespoons per gallon. It is milky white like bayer, but smells absolutely awful.

-First experiment was a five minute soak in 100ml of tank water to 1ml of Malathion. After the soak, a good rinse and then a close observation. Bugs unfazed.

-I placed the same frag back in the bath for 10 more minutes. After the soak I rinsed well and then observed closely - no movement in the bugs.

I cut the frag off the plug, replaced with new plug, and then back in the tank. I don't have a coral qt at the moment, my fish qt is probably not a good place due to copper residue and less than ideal nutrient levels. The frag plug is in a cup of tank water, I'm watching for any movement. I figure if there is no bug movement then the experiment was a success..... fingers crossed.


summary:

100/1 bath of tank water and malathion for 15 minutes was successful (hopefully) in killing the bugs.

Questions:

1) Will the frag survive? The frag showed no signs of distress, no sliming and no immediate run. Will observe and see how the frag does over the next few days.

2) How toxic is the residue of the distillate or malathion in the display? Probably should run carbon after dipping.


If the frag survives and recovers I will have to come up with a process to dip all the frags in the tank at the same time... about 25 small acro frags ranging from a single branch of 1 inch to multi branch 2 inch "mini colony".

My first thought would be to dip corals once a week for maybe five weeks. I have researched and their life cycle is approximately two weeks.

 

[Syntax1235]

I was scraping a big off a plug and ended up seeing this…. Are these egg sacks?

 

[Dr. Jim]

The KCL hasn't arrived yet so I just started experimenting with the Malathion, it is a 50% solution mixed with Petroleum distillate. The dosage says two tablespoons per gallon. It is milky white like bayer, but smells absolutely awful.

-First experiment was a five minute soak in 100ml of tank water to 1ml of Malathion. After the soak, a good rinse and then a close observation. Bugs unfazed.

-I placed the same frag back in the bath for 10 more minutes. After the soak I rinsed well and then observed closely - no movement in the bugs.

I cut the frag off the plug, replaced with new plug, and then back in the tank. I don't have a coral qt at the moment, my fish qt is probably not a good place due to copper residue and less than ideal nutrient levels. The frag plug is in a cup of tank water, I'm watching for any movement. I figure if there is no bug movement then the experiment was a success..... fingers crossed.


summary:

100/1 bath of tank water and malathion for 15 minutes was successful (hopefully) in killing the bugs.

Questions:

1) Will the frag survive? The frag showed no signs of distress, no sliming and no immediate run. Will observe and see how the frag does over the next few days.

2) How toxic is the residue of the distillate or malathion in the display? Probably should run carbon after dipping.


If the frag survives and recovers I will have to come up with a process to dip all the frags in the tank at the same time... about 25 small acro frags ranging from a single branch of 1 inch to multi branch 2 inch "mini colony".

My first thought would be to dip corals once a week for maybe five weeks. I have researched and their life cycle is approximately two weeks.

LOL! I know that stuff smells nasty! The only thing worse than working with organophosphates is working with radioactive materials!

It sounds like you have it figured out! Congratulations! And it looks like your dose of 1 ml per 100 ml is right on target considering that we've been using the Bayer product at about twice the recommended dosage for grubs written on the bottle. (I'm just thinking what has worked for us with the Bayer product might give us a rough starting point to start playing around with dosages for malathion).

Malathion dosage on bottle: 2 TBS/gal = 30 ml / 3785ml = 0.79 ml / 100 ml. Twice that dosage would be about 1.6 ml/100 ml so your 1ml/100ml seems to be right in a reasonable range. Good job! And good luck going forward!

We should all remember this thread if we ever run across a stubborn bug!

 

[Syntax1235]

LOL! I know that stuff smells nasty! The only thing worse than working with organophosphates is working with radioactive materials!

It sounds like you have it figured out! Congratulations! And it looks like your dose of 1 ml per 100 ml is right on target considering that we've been using the Bayer product at about twice the recommended dosage for grubs written on the bottle. (I'm just thinking what has worked for us with the Bayer product might give us a rough starting point to start playing around with dosages for malathion).

Malathion dosage on bottle: 2 TBS/gal = 30 ml / 3785ml = 0.79 ml / 100 ml. Twice that dosage would be about 1.6 ml/100 ml so your 1ml/100ml seems to be right in a reasonable range. Good job! And good luck going forward!

We should all remember this thread if we ever run across a stubborn bug!

Agreed! I’ll start a new thread with just the dosing and process once I get rid of these things.

Did you ever have see adverse effects on coral using Dyacide?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Agreed! I’ll start a new thread with just the dosing and process once I get rid of these things.

Did you ever have see adverse effects on coral using Dyacide?

No, I never saw adverse effects from the Dyacide OR ivermectin. I did not use the Dyacide as a dip though, but rather, as a bath in a dedicated Q-tank for a several weeks. Although I did play around with both drugs in the same tank (with major water changes), I am confident that it was the Dyacide rather than ivermectin that killed the bugs. The Dyacide worked like a charm after numerous failures and experimenting with Bayer and Interceptor. Although I had the opportunity to use it as a bath, I believe the bugs were killed relatively quickly.

(In case anyone didn't see my thread about those trials, one positive thing I found with ivermectin is that it works very nicely for paralyzing Bearded Fire Worms, at 2 cc per 30 gal for a few hours.)

 

[Syntax1235]

No, I never saw adverse effects from the Dyacide OR ivermectin. I did not use the Dyacide as a dip though, but rather, as a bath in a dedicated Q-tank for a several weeks. Although I did play around with both drugs in the same tank (with major water changes), I am confident that it was the Dyacide rather than ivermectin that killed the bugs. The Dyacide worked like a charm after numerous failures and experimenting with Bayer and Interceptor. Although I had the opportunity to use it as a bath, I believe the bugs were killed relatively quickly.

(In case anyone didn't see my thread about those trials, one positive thing I found with ivermectin is that it works very nicely for paralyzing Bearded Fire Worms, at 2 cc per 30 gal for a few hours.)

I've read your threads and saw the fire worm, yikes! I'm thinking of taking the corals out and dipping them; however, I'm wondering how many of the little beasts will be roaming around the rocks.

Any idea on whether the second picture I posted are eggs?

 

[Dr. Jim]

I've read your threads and saw the fire worm, yikes! I'm thinking of taking the corals out and dipping them; however, I'm wondering how many of the little beasts will be roaming around the rocks.

Any idea on whether the second picture I posted are eggs?

I'm not sure what those are but I doubt they are eggs. I'm not sure what magnification you used but I'm guessing they are larger than the "bugs"? I don't know of any bugs that produce "egg cases" but I'm no expert in that field.
If I had to guess, I would lean towards some kind of protozoa that ingests algae due to the green contents. But why would they congregate on the plugs? Maybe they are eating dead tissue along with algae???

Check out this:

Euglena flagellate protozoans​

https://www.britannica.com/science/Euglena

• "Like many protozoans, they are free-living, using a whiplike flagellum to move about. Euglena is one of the euglenoid genera that contain chlorophyll, allowing them to create their own food through photosynthesis. Euglena live in a variety of aquatic habitats, both freshwater and marine."

Hopefully, we have a microbiologist or parasitologist in the audience that might know.

 

[sculpin01]

I was scraping a big off a plug and ended up seeing this…. Are these egg sacks?

Chrysophytes?

 

[sculpin01]

No, I never saw adverse effects from the Dyacide OR ivermectin. I did not use the Dyacide as a dip though, but rather, as a bath in a dedicated Q-tank for a several weeks. Although I did play around with both drugs in the same tank (with major water changes), I am confident that it was the Dyacide rather than ivermectin that killed the bugs. The Dyacide worked like a charm after numerous failures and experimenting with Bayer and Interceptor. Although I had the opportunity to use it as a bath, I believe the bugs were killed relatively quickly.

(In case anyone didn't see my thread about those trials, one positive thing I found with ivermectin is that it works very nicely for paralyzing Bearded Fire Worms, at 2 cc per 30 gal for a few hours.)

Interesting. I have been using ivermectin for the past 6 months as a final coral bath prior to introduction into the tank and have found it lethal to everything except the red acoel flatworms. I am curious as to what effect it would have on these mites.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Interesting. I have been using ivermectin for the past 6 months as a final coral bath prior to introduction into the tank and have found it lethal to everything except the red acoel flatworms. I am curious as to what effect it would have on these mites.

From my limited experimenting with ivermectin, it didn't seem like it had any effect on the stubborn "brown bugs" I was dealing with. The Dyacide, an organophosphate, seemed to work well which is why I'm somewhat optimistic that the malathion will do the trick for Syntax1235.

 

[Syntax1235]

I'm not sure what those are but I doubt they are eggs. I'm not sure what magnification you used but I'm guessing they are larger than the "bugs"? I don't know of any bugs that produce "egg cases" but I'm no expert in that field.
If I had to guess, I would lean towards some kind of protozoa that ingests algae due to the green contents. But why would they congregate on the plugs? Maybe they are eating dead tissue along with algae???

Check out this:

Euglena flagellate protozoans​

https://www.britannica.com/science/Euglena

• "Like many protozoans, they are free-living, using a whiplike flagellum to move about. Euglena is one of the euglenoid genera that contain chlorophyll, allowing them to create their own food through photosynthesis. Euglena live in a variety of aquatic habitats, both freshwater and marine."

Hopefully, we have a microbiologist or parasitologist in the audience that might know.

I can't get a good picture of the "eggs" because they have dried out; however, they are very small, probably about a 1/4 of the size of their legs.

 

[ScottB]

Chrysophytes?

Negative on chrysophytes. They do not line up like that and they are super small. I don't know the magnification of this photo, but to get a similar photo for me was 1200X. Similar in color though and also photosynthetic.

*edit chrysophytes (maybe) don't lay eggs. More like a "golden algae". I solved for these with an algaecide.

 

[Syntax1235]

Negative on chrysophytes. They do not line up like that and they are super small. I don't know the magnification of this photo, but to get a similar photo for me was 1200X. Similar in color though and also photosynthetic.

*edit chrysophytes (maybe) don't lay eggs. More like a "golden algae". I solved for these with an algaecide.

Hi Scott,

I'm borrowing the microscope that I'm using for the pictures. The eyepiece reads 10x - 18mm and the lens was 40mm for the picture I posted. Maybe 720x for magnification.

 

[ScottB]

The image in post #62 looks like diatoms to me.

 

[Syntax1235]

Update:

The KCL I ordered finally came in yesterday. I spent the morning playing with dip lengths and concentrations, and found success with a 2% kcl to tank water dip for 20 minutes.

I took all my acro's off the rock work and placed them on plugs on racks in my display. I dipped all my sps corals, they all had bugs. Unfortunately, Every piece of sps coral I had in the tank shows signs of bite marks, that would explain why my alk consumption has been decreasing for past 6 weeks or so. I also examined a couple of baseball sized rocks that had small frags mounted and saw the bugs crawling around.

So, they are not only on the corals, but also on the rocks.

I have eliminated the bugs from the corals temporarily, but they are sure to return shortly. I'm thinking that dipping the corals in KCL once a week may eventually eliminate all the bugs?

Maybe I need to dose interceptor at this point?


I'm very relieved that I don't have to deal with Malathion to kill these bugs.


Edit: Upon further inspection of the corals on the frag racks, there are a few of the bugs still alive. I'll increase the concentration of the dip tomorrow and see how that goes.

 

[sculpin01]

If you can catch some, it might be worth trying this (outside of the tank):

Use of Ivermectin to Control Red Bugs (Tegastes acroporanus) - Reef Central Online Community

Use of Ivermectin to Control Red Bugs (Tegastes acroporanus) SPS Keepers

www.reefcentral.com

 

[Syntax1235]

If you can catch some, it might be worth trying this (outside of the tank):

Use of Ivermectin to Control Red Bugs (Tegastes acroporanus) - Reef Central Online Community

Use of Ivermectin to Control Red Bugs (Tegastes acroporanus) SPS Keepers

www.reefcentral.com

Something to consider, but I think I'll give the KCL a couple months to work.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Maybe I need to dose interceptor at this point?

Have you not tried Interceptor yet? I just read again your entire thread and don't see that you tried that. I'm glad I did read it again because I apologize for missing that the parasite is a mite, not a tegastes copepod like what I was dealing with. (I was basing all my earlier recommendations on my experiences with tegastes "bugs," not mites). With either parasite, it would probably make sense to try Interceptor before trying any of the other drugs (KCl, malathion or ivermectin) since we know a dosage that works at least for Red Bugs. (Interceptor can also be used for skin mites on dogs so we know it is good for at least some mites). But now that I realize it is a mite, if it was me, and Interceptor didn't work, I would go right to Ivomec as @sculpin01 has been suggesting. I've used Ivomec for years to kill microscopic burrowing mites (knemidocoptes) in parakeets and they are easily eliminated with just 1/5 of a drop placed on the skin. Of course it is a different mite, but Ivomec is certainly a drug of choice for mites. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier.

FWIW, the dosage of Ivomec in the article that Sculpin01 mentioned was about 10X more concentrated than the dosage that I used for telegastes which didn't kill them. However, my weaker dosage was plenty to paralyze worms, including Bearded Fire Worms which makes me think the article's dosage of 2 ml/2.6 gal is a whopping dose and perhaps should only be used as a dip or bath and could be potentially dangerous to use in a main tank. ??

 

[Syntax1235]

Have you not tried Interceptor yet? I just read again your entire thread and don't see that you tried that. I'm glad I did read it again because I apologize for missing that the parasite is a mite, not a tegastes copepod like what I was dealing with. (I was basing all my earlier recommendations on my experiences with tegastes "bugs," not mites). With either parasite, it would probably make sense to try Interceptor before trying any of the other drugs (KCl, malathion or ivermectin) since we know a dosage that works at least for Red Bugs. (Interceptor can also be used for skin mites on dogs so we know it is good for at least some mites). But now that I realize it is a mite, if it was me, and Interceptor didn't work, I would go right to Ivomec as @sculpin01 has been suggesting. I've used Ivomec for years to kill microscopic burrowing mites (knemidocoptes) in parakeets and they are easily eliminated with just 1/5 of a drop placed on the skin. Of course it is a different mite, but Ivomec is certainly a drug of choice for mites. Sorry I didn't catch this earlier.

FWIW, the dosage of Ivomec in the article that Sculpin01 mentioned was about 10X more concentrated than the dosage that I used for telegastes which didn't kill them. However, my weaker dosage was plenty to paralyze worms, including Bearded Fire Worms which makes me think the article's dosage of 2 ml/2.6 gal is a whopping dose and perhaps should only be used as a dip or bath and could be potentially dangerous to use in a main tank. ??

No, interceptor has not come in yet. No worries on missing the mite detail, there’s a lot of info on this thread,

I’ll have to read the thread regarding ivermectin, that is easily attainable.

well, at least all my corals are on plugs and it will be easy to give them a bath in the ivermectin.

What would you recommend as a dose for a bath?

 

[Dr. Jim]

What would you recommend as a dose for a bath?

The highest I went with Ivomec 1% Injectable solution was 4 ml per 30 gallons which is about 1/5 of the recommendation in the article. I believe I performed a 50% water change 8 hours later. That dosage did not kill the "Brown Bugs" (Tegastes) that I wrote about. But since you have a mite which is a very different parasite, perhaps the lower dose will work on them. I'd probably try a few frags in a smaller volume of water but at the same concentration as my higher dosage, e.g. 0.4 ml in 3 gallons. If that doesn't work, you could increase the concentration up to the 2 ml per 2.6 gallons as recommended in the article. Or, start with a guinea pig frag or two in the higher concentration suggested in the article just to see if it will work. If it does, then see if you can get by with a lower concentration??

Perhaps should aerate the bath water?

If you find a concentration that works, perhaps you could bath some of your rocks to see if the bath rids them of bugs?

If it was me and I found that the lower concentration (0.4 ml in 3 gal) that I used was effective and I didn't have a lot of worms to lose, I'd consider treating the whole tank followed by a major water change (100%). (This dosage did not phase a hippo tang). I know treating the whole tank is a drastic measure and you would lose inverts you can't remove, but without treating the whole tank I would worry that total eradication may be difficult.

Sorry that I don't have the perfect answer!