Radium metal halide bulbs will not be produced anymore!

[A. grandis]

Good point jda brought about the "selection" of corals people are able to keep under LEDs, and some of the species we used to keep under halides. That is absolutely true and the main reason why we find only the Acros we find today at the so called "surerstores". That is also, in great part, the reason why many can't keep clams nowadays! This selection is and will continue to hit public aquariums as well. The reason why many aquariums gave up and went back to halides!
Only corals that will "glow" under LEDs are sold too, cause they get that extra ca$h. The selection of hobbyists that actually understand what we had in the past, with a vast number of halide gear available, keeping those species we can't find today is also that definition of the level of the hobby, also mentioned by jda couple times here. The definition, essence and the level of our hobby changed dramatically.

 

[MnFish1]

I just got an official email from my friends in Germany at the Radium factory saying that both Radium bulbs (250W and 400W) will not be in production anymore! This is very bad news for those who have been using them for such a long time! Radium bulbs were the best sellers for so many years! When used with the right ballast they produce one of the most spectacular and unique spectrum over any tank! One more way to regress in this hobby is to loose the opportunity of choice! The fact that many vendors have eliminated metal halide gear from their stock/website have contributed to a diminished number of lamps to be sold. Without gear new hobbyists naturally won't be able to try those lamps and with the number of hobbyists growing every day having to choose LEDs, the number of bulbs per percentage of sale will drop accordingly. A very nice market strategy to get rid of the metal halides as a whole. The qualities of the lamp are still the best for many applications, but Radium claims there was a significant "drop in sales".

To quote the movie Titanic, "Life will go on"

 

[oreo54]

Fyi ...

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https://prosperity-grp.com/our_business/shaoxing-times-lighting-technology-company-limited/

 

[djf91]

Good point jda brought about the "selection" of corals people are able to keep under LEDs, and some of the species we used to keep under halides. That is absolutely true and the main reason why we find only the Acros we find today at the so called "surerstores". That is also, in great part, the reason why many can't keep clams nowadays! This selection is and will continue to hit public aquariums as well. The reason why many aquariums gave up and went back to halides!
Only corals that will "glow" under LEDs are sold too, cause they get that extra ca$h. The selection of hobbyists that actually understand what we had in the past, with a vast number of halide gear available, keeping those species we can't find today is also that definition of the level of the hobby, also mentioned by jda couple times here. The definition, essence and the level of our hobby changed dramatically.

This is just my opinion, but I also believe indopacific live rock is the other missing component to achieve what we had back in the day.

 

[njreefkeeper]

Guys what’s the deal with Tulio making a lower heat halide setup? I heard this mentioned a few times in various videos and posts. Curious what the deal is. How it works. If it sacrifices output etc?

I feel like I’m going to start a heated debate so I’d like it explained to me. Reefbrite is advertising a “lower heat” metal halide fixture that runs cooler. In a recent Polo Reef video, a temperature gun was used to test his fixture’s temperature against a Radion.

My point is, hitting the back of a light fixture housing that doesn’t face the aquarium seems arbitrary to me. The business end of any light source is…at the source. Point that same temperature gun at the halide bulb when it’s on and compare it to a radion’s diodes on 100% intensity and let’s see the heat difference there. Radion for the win if we’re looking at heat emitted. DIRECT heat pointed down into the tank is much more conducive to raising tank temperature than ambient heat let out into a canopy/room/etc.

I love my halides as much as anyone on this thread, but yes, they run hot and that heat needs to be dealt with/mitigated. All electronic ballasts run cooler than the older magnetic ballasts. You should be fine with just about any electronic ballast you can find. To mitigate heat, we need better reflector offerings than the small pendants that have abysmal spread on larger tanks. I still have Lumenmax Elite and Lumenbrite reflectors I use. Luckily, they can be hung 18” (up to 24”) off the water with next to no heat transferred to the aquarium and can spread light much more effectively than a pendant. The reflector is where you’ll see the biggest heat transfer saving using halides. You need one you can hang high, not lose par and still get incredible spread. The problem is, anyone looking to start using halides has 4 options with respect to reflectors:

1. Buy a pendant that may be too small for the area you’re illuminating
2. Make your own off of a template and hope for the best.
3. Find some good used reflectors if you’re lucky enough
4. Buy reflectors designed for hydroponics that may or may not rust over time.

With respect to halides, running the right bulb and ballast combination is about half the equation. The reflector (much like the optics/lenses in an led fixture) is easily 50% of the puzzle and is often ignored.

 

[Yanir34]

Again the old debate which one is better....
I got this tiny frag from friend of mine...he grew under LED only.
now ,after one year and multiple fraging , the gray became colony .
during this year he got "cooked" under ATI power module 10×54w .
look at the even growth patterns, the density of its skeleton.
T5 is still my choice for SPS !

 

[CBonito]

I know it’s just not you lol… it’s crazy to me no mater what any led or mh thread goes sideways no mater what! I need have to rev start a mh forum and a led forum and you can only join the group that you have on your tank haha!

Yeah, when an internet forum turns into a golden corral running out of pork chops or something.

 

[A. grandis]

Again the old debate which one is better....
I got this tiny frag from friend of mine...he grew under LED only.
now ,after one year and multiple fraging , the gray became colony .
during this year he got "cooked" under ATI power module 10×54w .
look at the even growth patterns, the density of its skeleton.
T5 is still my choice for SPS !

You can only compare if you had halide T5. My choice to keep any cnidarian. I absolutely love T5 only systems!! But there is nothing like what halides can and will add to that! Using both you will get very close to what sunlight does. Nice Acros!

 

[A. grandis]

This is just my opinion, but I also believe indopacific live rock is the other missing component to achieve what we had back in the day.

Of course! Yes, I do hear a lot of people complaining about the dry rocks removed from mines you guys use there. We built here one of the systems with dry rock from the mainland and concrete. We had major issues only when that system was changed from halides to LEDs. The seeding of those rocks will take longer to establish, yes. The composition is indeed not the same! It's a shame you guys don't have that access to live rock like before. It does make a huge difference when natural sea water isn't available to seed that substrate!

 

[A. grandis]

I feel like I’m going to start a heated debate so I’d like it explained to me. Reefbrite is advertising a “lower heat” metal halide fixture that runs cooler. In a recent Polo Reef video, a temperature gun was used to test his fixture’s temperature against a Radion.

My point is, hitting the back of a light fixture housing that doesn’t face the aquarium seems arbitrary to me. The business end of any light source is…at the source. Point that same temperature gun at the halide bulb when it’s on and compare it to a radion’s diodes on 100% intensity and let’s see the heat difference there. Radion for the win if we’re looking at heat emitted. DIRECT heat pointed down into the tank is much more conducive to raising tank temperature than ambient heat let out into a canopy/room/etc.

I love my halides as much as anyone on this thread, but yes, they run hot and that heat needs to be dealt with/mitigated. All electronic ballasts run cooler than the older magnetic ballasts. You should be fine with just about any electronic ballast you can find. To mitigate heat, we need better reflector offerings than the small pendants that have abysmal spread on larger tanks. I still have Lumenmax Elite and Lumenbrite reflectors I use. Luckily, they can be hung 18” (up to 24”) off the water with next to no heat transferred to the aquarium and can spread light much more effectively than a pendant. The reflector is where you’ll see the biggest heat transfer saving using halides. You need one you can hang high, not lose par and still get incredible spread. The problem is, anyone looking to start using halides has 4 options with respect to reflectors:

1. Buy a pendant that may be too small for the area you’re illuminating
2. Make your own off of a template and hope for the best.
3. Find some good used reflectors if you’re lucky enough
4. Buy reflectors designed for hydroponics that may or may not rust over time.

With respect to halides, running the right bulb and ballast combination is about half the equation. The reflector (much like the optics/lenses in an led fixture) is easily 50% of the puzzle and is often ignored.

The application for each system needs to follow wattage/ reflector/ ballast combination for the optimal result for each application using halides.
The heat from halides is from the fixture and radiant heat, infra red. The fact you can touch the ReefBrite fixture is because of the design and the lower wattage used by the ballast, producing less of that heat, by ReefBrite. The claiming of better PAR, less wattage used is part of the ReefBrite combo of ballast/fixture design, as I understand. Radiant heat will be less, according to them. Still, to me, the radiant heat, which is from infra red, is part of the great qualities of halides and what makes it a real full spectrum lamp! The sun emits way more and that is great for the corals.
I've said that before, long time ago, and will repeat here... the combination of the IR emitted from halides and the controlled temperature (chiller) is what is part of the "magic" keeping the corals in a balance system. The IR goes in the water within the whole full spectrum and that is the gold of the combo. I found once a paper with some explanation about the combination of IR and cool water and the importance for the corals, but I was stupid enough not to pin that paper!
Shimmer also acts as a very important factor within the full spectrum and the presence of IR and UV. The shimmer makes a very unique combo of lenses that will concentrate the full spectrum and that powerful intensity for that very short period of time, multiple times in a diverse pattern. For that, in conjunction with the controlled water temperature and the presence of IR, we have also the importance of water motion, that will prevent damages by helping with alkalinity/ oxygen rates, etc... Te action of shimmer will boost zooxanthellae/coral health and the relationship/ reproduction cycle of the algae and therefore optimize the general health of the coral, just like in nature. The natural growth rate, robust tissue and uniformity of the colony structure are the essence of coral health, and need to be considered. There are hobbyists and hobbyists... They have different personal preferences and priorities. Different levels...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Still, to me, the radiant heat, which is from infra red, is part of the great qualities of halides and what makes it a real full spectrum lamp! The sun emits way more and that is great for the corals. I've said that before, long time ago, and will repeat here... the combination of the IR emitted from halides and the controlled temperature (chiller) is what is part of the "magic" keeping the corals in a balance system. The IR goes in the water within the whole full spectrum and that is the gold of the combo. I found once a paper with some explanation about the combination of IR and cool water and the importance for the corals, but I was stupid enough not to pin that paper!

Huh??????
There is not enough energy in IR wavelengths to drive photosynthesis. Trying to spin that is a "look ma no heater" bonus is insanely silly.

This is the nonsense that wrecks your credibility.

The shimmer makes a very unique combo of lenses that will concentrate the full spectrum and that powerful intensity for that very short period of time

Huh? Now shimmer is concentrating light and growing coral better too?

we have also the importance of water motion, that will prevent damages by helping with alkalinity/ oxygen rates, etc..

But that has nothing to do with the lights.

Te action of shimmer will boost zooxanthellae/coral health and the relationship/ reproduction cycle of the algae and therefore optimize the general health of the coral, just like in nature. The natural growth rate, robust tissue and uniformity of the colony structure are the essence of coral health, and need to be considered. There are hobbyists and hobbyists... They have different personal preferences and priorities. Different levels...

You just wildly pontificating... this Mr. Grandis is where you lose people over and over.

Stick to facts. Love your halides, but please stop whistling out of your back side.

 

[CBonito]

I've found that a light that produces enough photons for healthy levels of photosynthesis in corals to occur is the one to definitely go with. You should definitely go with one that does that. I mean, consider the alternative.

 

[A. grandis]

Huh??????
There is not enough energy in IR wavelengths to drive photosynthesis. Trying to spin that is a "look ma no heater" bonus is insanely silly.

This is the nonsense that wrecks your credibility.


Huh? Now shimmer is concentrating light and growing coral better too?


But that has nothing to do with the lights.


You just wildly pontificating... this Mr. Grandis is where you lose people over and over.

Stick to facts. Love your halides, but please stop whistling out of your back side.

Thanks for your fire. I don't give anything for any credibility you or anyone might need from me. If I was afraid of "loosing any credibility" ever I would never expose my thoughts the way I do here! LOL! Please feel free to prove scientifically against what I just post. You most likely be able to do so, if you search enough. LOL! We can prove anything nowadays. I do wish I had that paper that proved my point with the IR/cooler water relationship! Perhaps someone will find that paper and help me out.
I'm still waiting for you to show your tank under LEDs and the pictures you had from halide days, Mr. Bean (sorry for the pun, you called me Mr. first!).

 

[jda]

There is not enough energy in IR wavelengths to drive photosynthesis.

In a different context than what you were responding to, IR does allow plants and even corals, to process/move energy between the photosystems and can drive more photosynthesis - study happening right now showing that Emerson Effect happens in corals too. While some proteins and clades can get energy from light up to 850nm, this is more for the PS1 and PS2, using, moving and and processing energy.

One of the researchers explained it in a decent way saying that visible spectrum is like protein, but you need aminos and the off products of aminos to actually make living tissue. The IR is a large part of the aminos and off products. You can do some tissue building with protein alone, but not nearly as much as you can with the rest.

This is the main reason why most think that 1200 PAR of MH does not harm corals yet most LED cannot get much over 500 PAR even with proper acclimation and all of that. This is what got the study started. It is also because some orgs are struggling with true coral under LED alone without sunlight in greenhouses (greenhouses are usually in hurricane areas which have wrecked whole cultures of corals in the past.) The people saving the reefs don't just get to pick the corals that do well under LED to try and grow to reseed the natural reefs.

Anyway study maybe done in late 2024 or 2025. A real oceanographic org is doing it, so it takes time.

In any case, IR does appear plenty important. However, IR diodes are short lived and pretty expensive, as we have talked about before in this forum. Plus, if you put some in some LEDs, then panels get even more hot (they get plenty hot now) and then one of the sales pitches goes away... along with more power to drive IR LEDs. Most folks know that you don't save any power anyway, but some still think that a watt vs a watt is not all the same heat in some place in the home.

 

[A. grandis]

Thanks for your patience explaining some of what happens and exposing your knowledge, jda, with a precise vocabulary and to the point!

 

[Thales]

Dr. Joshi has been really honest about this. Corals are already gone - not getting those back. In a 10 year transition, you end up with a subset of corals that grow "just fine" - this is the positive for the tank... and that is about it. No energy savings, no cost savings. Maybe some thunderstorms for the hobbyist, but the corals don't care about that. If you want to grow the corals that you once did, you have to go back... which many people have done and posted and made videos about.

The important thing to point out is that the nuance and details are real. People not seeing them are probably not worth having their opinions considered anymore. That post above with the one video is indicative of this with half of the story and no follow up. You can also find plenty of videos where people have added back MH and unequivocally see results - balanced posters mention these too. I agree that people need to weigh it for their own use, but how do you do that with half of a story? This is what I have an issue with.

I would be interested to see what Keith thinks of this a year from now. I have not personally talked to him, but heard that he is not happy with his decision. He does know the difference. I was sad to hear that his PM colony die.

I think that is a great argument. At the same time, the other side of that story is important too.
I remember running MH and some corals doing fine and some not...the corals that didn't do well just changed a little when I switched to LED. IIRC, tanks have always been a subset of corals that grow 'just fine' for each system, and a subset of corals that don't, regardless of light source. I think it likely has more to do with the system in general rather than light source, but surely lighing may have something to do with it.
Interestingly enough, some of the corals that I had problems growing after the switch to LED, which some people think is a phosphate issue, not a light issue, have stared to grow like nuts for me again, even with LED. Reef tanks are annoying!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Please feel free to prove scientifically against what I just post.

That is not the way it works. You can't just make up absolute nonsense that is contrary to known science and demand that you be proven wrong. You are the one who must prove that current science is wrong and you are right.

My "fire" is that you spread insanely false information that then gets cited and spread by others. You are doing a disservice to the truth and more damage to your "cause" than good. In one post:
MH is better because
-IR from MH magically controls tank temperature and it is better than a heater or chiller... or whatever.
-Full spectrum goes in the water and that is part of the "Gold" something or other.
-Shimmer grows coral better because it acts like thousands of lenses
-Shimmer boosts zoox
-MH helps water motion or something that effect.

I do wish I had that paper that proved my point with the IR/cooler water relationship!

The paper likely exists, but it is even more likely that you have misunderstood and conflated its contents with your grandiose (see what I did there ) imagination.


You do fine for a while in these threads and then you slip back into this nonsense, and it is nonsense. Stick to facts, they work better.

 

[oreo54]

1200par Afaict does not drive growth.
They may survive it like w/ UV.


I've yet to read one study, natural or artificial that doesn't have photosynthesis shutting down at those levels at least for corals. Pot and clams are exceptions.

A small reminder that repopulating the ocean is NOT your living room tank .

 

[A. grandis]

Just for fun, not to disrespect!

 

[Thales]

Last I looked into it, the shimmer we get in tanks was nothing like the glitter lines the sun produces on real feefs. Anyone have any links to some kind of direct comparison? Thanks.