Phosphate in fresh Tropic Marin Pro Salt Mix

[Kjames]

I had a lot of brown-black build-up from my last bucket of T.M.Pro. It seems OK with a new bucket. This is what I was told from T.M. when I sent them a photo. (Note: my tank is in a dark room which would tend to rule out algae/cyano):

"It definitely does not look like any kind of precipitate. It absolutely has the look of something biological. It could be cyano bacterial growth, if the holding tank is exposed to light during a period of holding. Or it could, more likely, be some kind of algae growth. It could also be manganese precipitates induced by bacterial oxidation. This means a biofilm of bacteria covers the insides of the tank. After adding our salts, which contain slightly elevated concentrations of iron and manganese, these trace metals get precipitated and form this dark film together with the bacterial biofilm. Finally this is exactly the mechanism by which both trace metals are removed from the saltwater after adding it to the display tank, so the elevated concentrations from the salt cannot be found in the display tanks.
If we are correct about any of this, it should not show up directly at the time of mixing, but some hours or maybe even days later. A good cleaning of the mixing tank and using of new batches of salt water solution soon after they are mixed, should make it that this issue does not show up again so soon."

I thought I was the only one seeing build up in my mixing tank. in 2019 my drum was pristine after several buckets of TM Pro. This year it has considerable gunk built up. Not griping about the performance - it's excellent - just wondering why the crud in my mixing tank. Good excuse to clean the drum.

Zero concerns about a little PO4 showing up.

 

[Jered]

Mixed a batch of 50/50 pro and classic tropic Marin today. 7 stage rodi, ran gfo on it for 48 hrs to ensure no pho’s. Tested with the Hanna 713 tester which is freshwater compatible and rodi tank was 0.0.
After mixing it for 8hrs and having it 35.3ppt - my pho’s was at 0.16.

Been battling phosphate for months and about to change salt to see if I can finally fix it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Mixed a batch of 50/50 pro and classic tropic Marin today. 7 stage rodi, ran gfo on it for 48 hrs to ensure no pho’s. Tested with the Hanna 713 tester which is freshwater compatible and rodi tank was 0.0.
After mixing it for 8hrs and having it 35.3ppt - my pho’s was at 0.16.

Been battling phosphate for months and about to change salt to see if I can finally fix it.

You need to look elsewhere. That level is not significant compared to food additions. That said, you may have even larger sources if you use rock that was loaded with phosphate.

 

[Reef.]

You need to look elsewhere. That level is not significant compared to food additions. That said, you may have even larger sources if you use rock that was loaded with phosphate.

does adding food raise PO4 over time or as soon as it’s added? Does the food need to break down before the PO4 is released?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

does adding food raise PO4 over time or as soon as it’s added? Does the food need to break down before the PO4 is released?

The phosphate that is part of biomolecules such as DNA, RNA, phospholipids, etc. need to be metabolized before the phosphate is detectable with a test kit. There can also be inorganic phosphate is reasonable amounts, especially in fresh and frozen human consumption seafoods that are "preserved for freshness" with phosphate.

 

[Jered]

Esited

 

[Jered]

You need to look elsewhere. That level is not significant compared to food additions. That said, you may have even larger sources if you use rock that was loaded with phosphate.

How is .16ppm on a Hanna ulr tester not significant? That’s higher than the amount desired in a reef tank which is .02-.05

did you read my post or just give the generic not significant reply?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How is .16ppm on a Hanna ulr tester not significant? That’s higher than the amount desired in a reef tank which is .02-.05

did you read my post or just give the generic not significant reply?

lol

Did you read my previous posts in this thread, or did you just post away without reading it?

Let's walk through it again.

In an existing tank, the only use for new salt water is water changes.

I'll assume you change about 30% total per month, but we can adjust the math to fit whatever you do. That amounts to 1% daily.

If you use new salt water with 0.16 ppm phosphate in it, and effectively change 1% daily, you are adding a total of 0.0016 ppm phosphate per day that way.

The foods you are feeding are likely adding a total of about 0.02 to 0.3 ppm of phosphate per day based on typical foods used.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

That food addition of phosphate is 12 to 200 times as much EACH day.

Thus, that water change addition of phosphate IS NOT the driver of an ongoing phosphate "problem".

 

[Jered]

lol

Did you read my previous posts in this thread, or did you just post away without reading it?

Let's walk through it again.

In an existing tank, the only use for new salt water is water changes.

I'll assume you change about 30% total per month, but we can adjust the math to fit whatever you do. That amounts to 1% daily.

If you use new salt water with 0.16 ppm phosphate in it, and effectively change 1% daily, you are adding a total of 0.0016 ppm phosphate per day that way.

The foods you are feeding are likely adding a total of about 0.02 to 0.3 ppm of phosphate per day based on typical foods used.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

That food addition of phosphate is 12 to 200 times as much EACH day.

Thus, that water change addition of phosphate IS NOT the driver of an ongoing phosphate "problem".

If your source salt mix is .16 which is higher than your tank is running. Then a 3g a day auto water change ads a small amount of phosphate daily.
When the desired level is .02 yes feeding is part of phosphate addition but just saying that a salt mix causing .16 in the bin is not significant is ignorant.
Sorry if you don’t agree. But simply saying starve you’d fish out and let the salt mix cause .16 is NOT the answer.

Yes food ads to it. But starting at 8x the desired level in salt mix is not acceptable.

 

[Reef.]

If your source salt mix is .16 which is higher than your tank is running. Then a 3g a day auto water change ads a small amount of phosphate daily.
When the desired level is .02 yes feeding is part of phosphate addition but just saying that a salt mix causing .16 in the bin is not significant is ignorant.
Sorry if you don’t agree. But simply saying starve you’d fish out and let the salt mix cause .16 is NOT the answer.

Yes food ads to it. But starting at 8x the desired level in salt mix is not acceptable.

No one suggested starving the fish.

If you run your tank at .02-.05 as you say then you will have some kind of PO4 removal in place even if the salt mix was zero, that would still be the case.
I agree your salt mix PO4 seems unreasonably high, if that figure is correct then Tropic Marin needs to address that IMO, but that doesn’t change the fact as Randy outlined, the amount you will be adding is insignificant considering all the PO4 you will be adding yourself on a daily basis.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If your source salt mix is .16 which is higher than your tank is running. Then a 3g a day auto water change ads a small amount of phosphate daily.
When the desired level is .02 yes feeding is part of phosphate addition but just saying that a salt mix causing .16 in the bin is not significant is ignorant.
Sorry if you don’t agree. But simply saying starve you’d fish out and let the salt mix cause .16 is NOT the answer.

Yes food ads to it. But starting at 8x the desired level in salt mix is not acceptable.

ignorant? No. It is math, pure and simple.

If the goal is to solve a phosphate problem, then removing 1/10th to 1/100th of the daily additions is not going to solve it any time soon.

If you consider that tiny amount significant, that's fine. But it is not an answer to the problem, in my opinion.

By the way, I NEVER said reduce feeding was the best way to deal with phosphate, so don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Jered]

ignorant? No. It is math, pure and simple.

If the goal is to solve a phosphate problem, then removing 1/10th to 1/100th of the daily additions is not going to solve it any time soon.

If you consider that tiny amount significant, that's fine. But it is not an answer to the problem, in my opinion.

By the way, I NEVER said reduce feeding was the best way to deal with phosphate, so don't put words in my mouth.

You do you bud.
Clearly your math is “more better”

 

[SteveG_inDC]

lol

Did you read my previous posts in this thread, or did you just post away without reading it?

Let's walk through it again.

In an existing tank, the only use for new salt water is water changes.

I'll assume you change about 30% total per month, but we can adjust the math to fit whatever you do. That amounts to 1% daily.

If you use new salt water with 0.16 ppm phosphate in it, and effectively change 1% daily, you are adding a total of 0.0016 ppm phosphate per day that way.

The foods you are feeding are likely adding a total of about 0.02 to 0.3 ppm of phosphate per day based on typical foods used.

Aquarium Chemistry: Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both

Foods are by far the most important source of phosphate in most aquariums. In considering whether sources of phosphate other than foods are important, one must carefully look to the actual amounts involved to determine whether other sources are even worth trying to minimize.

reefs.com

That food addition of phosphate is 12 to 200 times as much EACH day.

Thus, that water change addition of phosphate IS NOT the driver of an ongoing phosphate "problem".

This is a great article, although now i feel super-self-conscious when I feed my tank, like I'm just dumping raw phosphates in there every time!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You do you bud.
Clearly your math is “more better”

Thanks, I will!

Now if you want to lower phosphate in your tank, we can advise on that. There are many good ways. This may get you started:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is a great article, although now i feel super-self-conscious when I feed my tank, like I'm just dumping raw phosphates in there every time!

lol

Glad it was useful.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Blenny1959]

Had a bump in PO4 for the past two weeks, been monitoring but not coming down. I auto-water change 10% / 25 gallons a week split over the seven days and have approx. 30 gallons mixed each Sunday for the coming week using RODI and Tropic Marin Pro salt - Have been doing this for a couple of years without issue. Just PO4 tested the fresh salt mix with my Hannah Phos URL - and got 0.07ppm! I articles with people reporting similar issues with Red Sea salt but no real explanation. I've not tested my RODI as I don't believe the Hanna will work on freshwater? Anyone else had a similar issue and found a cause?

Hi, I accidently discovered that too.Check it with Hanna and Red Sea. I do regulary ICP of my tabk water and it is consistent at 0.01-0,02 and in lign this my own test. I also analysed from a fish store near by using Pro Reef a seawater sample and was the same . The guy was also surprided about the rel high number

Regards

 

[GillMeister]

There are a number of threads going on the subject of TM Pro availability and in one of them there was a link to a vendor with insanely low prices on TM Pro salt, 200 gallon buckets. Someone said the labeling looked different. There could be someone repackaging really cheap salt to fill the void Tropic Marin has in the supply. Be careful is the best advice I can give.

 

[thatmanMIKEson]

Salt mixes are never the primary source of phosphate (unless possibly if you do a lot of water changes with tap water that is 1 ppm plus in phosphate). Foods are far, far higher, and water changes are rarely effective at lowering phosphate, even when none is in the new water. Even a 100% water change will not drop phosphate all that much becuase so much of the total is held in a reservoir bound to rock and sand.

So if phosphates are bound in the rock and sand, what should one do remove rock and sand and go to 5 glass panels some water and pvc fittings for swim thru's?

 

[SheldonC]

Refreshing this thread, but I've been using Tropic Marin Pro Reef since I started my system (handful of months ago) and had high PO4 from the start. Decided to mix up a brand new batch of salt and test - .1 PO4. I thought, maybe it's a bad batch, and ordered another box. Sure enough, another test of fresh saltwater was .13 PO4. I have a 5 stage RO/DI system with no TDS being read. I'm very curious if I need to try a new salt.

 

[Reef.]

Refreshing this thread, but I've been using Tropic Marin Pro Reef since I started my system (handful of months ago) and had high PO4 from the start. Decided to mix up a brand new batch of salt and test - .1 PO4. I thought, maybe it's a bad batch, and ordered another box. Sure enough, another test of fresh saltwater was .13 PO4. I have a 5 stage RO/DI system with no TDS being read. I'm very curious if I need to try a new salt.

Try another along side your TM, there are salts out there that claim not to have po4.