Palytoxin chemistry

[Stupidkitty84]

I have been hit with this 4 times. Sucks every time.. The second was the most severe.. I remember the drop hitting my lip on the band saw and 2 hours later all hell started break loose. I tell my loved one whenever i cut coral now..

I had an experience recently with a shipment of corals. The vendor placed the stargazer/daisy cutter zoas at the top of the shipping box where they had a strong heat pack taped to the lid. The bag of zoas felt like bathwater through the bag (however warm that may be idk) and I opened the bag over the sink with my head tilted far back. As soon as the bag was punctured, a burst of warm, moist air shot out and blasted me in the face. Both eyes became red but one eye was much worse and lasted 2 days. My dogs that were in the kitchen with me started puking within 15-30 minutes and they were stumbling, losing balance when leaving the kitchen. Also, I had a racing, palpitating heart beat, lightheadedness, and headache but that only lasted a few hours. Heated, aerosolized palytoxin is dangerous. I'm glad I snorted out a breath through my nose when I felt the stinging air entering my nostrils during the "blast."

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

"Activated carbon adsorbed 99.7% of PLTXs contained in the seawater and this represents a good strategy for preventing aquarium hobbyist poisonings."
From An aquarium hobbyist poisoning: Identification of new palytoxins in Palythoa cf. toxica and complete detoxification of the aquarium water by activated carbon

So we assume GAC helps mitigate the toxin in the water, but of course that doesn't help you if you scrub the rocks or directly contact the coral tissue etc.

We also presume GAC would remove toxins from dinoflagellates, (ovatoxin, saxitoxin, others) because ovatoxin is called a "palytoxin analogue". But I don't know enough to be confident on that.

Cyanobacteria can also be a source of palytoxin. I have a temporary frag tank that gets quite a bit of cyano. Several times in the last few months when cleaning it, I had a strange sensation - the middle of my tongue went numb. Now, I definitely wasn't getting the water near my mouth, but can assume some toxins became airborne and I inhaled them. No other symptoms and the sensation went away a short while after I left that room.

Edit: I have no zoas or palys.

 

[taricha]

Cyanobacteria can also be a source of palytoxin. I have a temporary frag tank that gets quite a bit of cyano. Several times in the last few months when cleaning it, I had a strange sensation - the middle of my tongue went numb.

Cyano make their own toxins, maybe not palytoxin specifically. Also dinoflagellates often co-occur in cyano mats.

Here's an actual question for all of you chemists. Would you abstain from keeping paly/zoa in your own DT? Do you honestly feel that the risk is too great, or do you believe that they do not pose a significant risk with normal handling and reef keeping practices? @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

(I'm only a hobby chemist) I have palys, but I wish I didn't and am slowly eliminating them. I don't think they are toxic, but only because I've cut a number of them and have never had a reaction.
I think @Thales argued that the hobby should stop dealing in palys altogether. Their redeeming qualities are easily replaced by other awesome corals, which makes the health incidents in the hobby completely unnecessary.
Are other organisms toxic in a way that could affect the reefkeepers health? Sure, but pretty low risk compared to palys.

I think I find Thales argument persuasive. If I wanted this level of risk in a hobby, I'd go back to rock climbing....

I tell my loved one whenever i cut coral now..

Another way to think of it is that Chemistry is Dangerous. Chemists wear basic PPE - gloves, coat, goggles just being in a lab, even dealing with things much less dangerous than palytoxin. Not because they expect dangerous things to happen - but precisely because dangerous things happen unexpectedly.

I don't want to have to do that kind of stuff to interact with my tank, and I don't think any other hobbyists do either.

 

[rennjidk]

I have palys, but I wish I didn't and am slowly eliminating them. I don't think they are toxic, but only because I've cut a number of them and have never had a reaction.
I think @Thales argued that the hobby should stop dealing in palys altogether. Their redeeming qualities are easily replaced by other awesome corals, which makes the health incidents in the hobby completely unnecessary.
Are other organisms toxic in a way that could affect the reefkeepers health? Sure, but pretty low risk compared to palys.

Now when you say that, are you referring what is sold under the trade name palys, or do you mean zoanthids as a whole?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's an actual question for all of you chemists. Would you abstain from keeping paly/zoa in your own DT? Do you honestly feel that the risk is too great, or do you believe that they do not pose a significant risk with normal handling and reef keeping practices? @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I'm not a big fan of zooanthids in general, but if I wanted them I'd likely keep them. I have kept a few in the past.

I would be careful to not touch them with bare skin, and not ever cut them or rocks they are on, or anything else that might cause broken zooanthid tissue or fluids to splash into the air or onto myself.

 

[taricha]

Now when you say that, are you referring what is sold under the trade name palys, or do you mean zoanthids as a whole?

I meant what we call palythoa (most exposure issues), not what we call zoa (relatively fewer incidents).

 

[areefer01]

Still hunting down a few Gaudy Clown Crabs to see if they really eat palythoas

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Cyano make their own toxins, maybe not palytoxin specifically. Also dinoflagellates often co-occur in cyano mats.

True. And I believe I was thinking of this article which describes a palytoxin being found in Trichodesmium cyanobacteria.

Toxic potential of palytoxin - Current Medical Science

This review briefly describes the origin, chemistry, molecular mechanism of action, pharmacology, toxicology, and ecotoxicology of palytoxin and its analogues. Palytoxin and its analogues are produced by marine dinoflagellates. Palytoxin is also produced by Zoanthids (i.e. Palythoa), and...

link.springer.com

So basically I had neurological symptoms from something else... I will need to investigate further!

 

[peterpaul]

I have removed all zoas and palys from my tanks. Unfortunately the palytoxin sent me to the emergency room twice and had to be warded in the icu both times. My doctor told me to get rid of those corals.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I have removed all zoas and palys from my tanks. Unfortunately the palytoxin sent me to the emergency room twice and had to be warded in the icu both times. My doctor told me to get rid of those corals.

So you're in the (un)lucky 1%. Sorry to hear that - it's hard to be allergic/dangerously reactive to something you like.

 

[fryman]

Here's an actual question for all of you chemists. Would you abstain from keeping paly/zoa in your own DT? Do you honestly feel that the risk is too great, or do you believe that they do not pose a significant risk with normal handling and reef keeping practices? @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I am interested in experts' opinions as well.

Probably I should keep my mouth shut given the tone of this thread, but .. not gonna do that.

I have read a number of reports of "palytoxin poisoning" that were probably not - i.e.: https://reefbuilders.com/2022/03/22/another-cautionary-tale-about-zoanthids-graphic-warning/

In summary, this is a report from someone who put his hand in a tank with an open wound which became inflamed/infected. The doctors treated with antibiotics, and he got better. He blames zoas. Color me skeptical. He probably got a bacterial infection, since afaik antibiotics do exactly diddly-squat for palytoxin poisoning. I think alot of the palythoa poisoning reports are actually bacterial (or something else).

I think there is a trend in the hobby lately to blame any adverse reaction from reef aquaria on palythoa/zoanthids. Pallys used to be recommended for beginners, since they grow so fast. This is my biggest problem with them, frankly.

 

[jda]

You should put in your medical record that you keep live corals that might contain palytoxin... and certainly if you do indeed have palys from Hawaii. Same if you have any other poisonous or venomous creatures. It makes it easier for a doctor to believe and treat you. My doctor did not even know what palytoxin was when I told her, but she looked it up and has a few notes now on symptoms and how to start treatment if I am unable to respond. I just takes a second and might help out some day.

 

[MinnieMouse2]

Here's an actual question for all of you chemists. Would you abstain from keeping paly/zoa in your own DT? Do you honestly feel that the risk is too great, or do you believe that they do not pose a significant risk with normal handling and reef keeping practices? @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha

I do not have any zoa or paly in my tank. However I have the toxic ostreopsis. I rinse out floss etc under running water and sometimes it stinks bad. I use this floss to collect a lot of them. I run a UV. I have not been able to get rid of them completely as I have small clams that need to be fed, and clam feed seems they like it. I can keep their numbers low, but it has been a battle.

 

[rennjidk]

So how do we render it inert? So far, the only advice I've heard is "wash your hands in hot water." Is soap enough to remove palytoxin from our skin? Does hot water actually help to break it down? How would you sanitize equipment specifically against palytoxin? Obviously there is no replacement for PPE, but is there something more we could be doing?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

So how do we render it inert? So far, the only advice I've heard is "wash your hands in hot water." Is soap enough to remove palytoxin from our skin? Does hot water actually help to break it down? How would you sanitize equipment specifically against palytoxin? Obviously there is no replacement for PPE, but is there something more we could be doing?

Afaik, palytoxin doesn't absorb into the skin, but can get into cuts, eyes, mucus membranes, etc. I doubt hot water does anything (at least the temperature for hand washing) and it seems like just using soap and water should do the trick to remove it from (intact) skin.

As for equipment, I've only ever rinsed in water and scrubbed with a brush (after any use, not just on zoas/palys), but spraying your tools with isopropyl alcohol won't hurt, and can help them dry faster too.

 

[brandon429]

how is joshporksandwich not in the palytoxin e.r. constantly (world record palytoxin-encountering zoanthid salesman)

 

[areefer01]

BTW, I just watched the reefbeef episode where Joe and the hosts share their palytoxin experiences. Totally wild stuff.

Correct - and removing or containing or reducing the palythoa was one of the driving forces of restarting that reef. Also a great video to watch for scale.

Edit: as an aside rumor around the street is that Gaudy Clown Crabs eat palythoa's although I've not been able to purchase or find a source to test this out.

 

[fryman]

Correct - and removing or containing or reducing the palythoa was one of the driving forces of restarting that reef. Also a great video to watch for scale.

Edit: as an aside rumor around the street is that Gaudy Clown Crabs eat palythoa's although I've not been able to purchase or find a source to test this out.

I watch those guys alot and have alot of respect for them.. but their evidence is basically "he had adverse reactions when in the tank a lot, and there are palythoa in the tank" This isn't compelling proof, there are plenty of alternate explanations.

Also interesting to note that the guy in that episode admitted to Joe in a later episode that he added palythoa grandis to the tank after the restart, lol. I could tell by his reaction that Joe did not approve, but he didn't harp on it.

 

[Thales]

I watch those guys alot and have alot of respect for them.. but their evidence is basically "he had adverse reactions when in the tank a lot, and there are palythoa in the tank" This isn't compelling proof, there are plenty of alternate explanations.

What else in Joes tank causes palytoxin like reactions in tank where paly's have grown out of control? Thanks.

Also interesting to note that the guy in that episode admitted to Joe in a later episode that he added palythoa grandis to the tank after the restart, lol. I could tell by his reaction that Joe did not approve, but he didn't harp on it.

I am pretty sure Joe said he put them back in the tank, and I imagine my face did not approve.

 

[fryman]

What else in Joes tank causes palytoxin like reactions in tank where paly's have grown out of control? Thanks.

Oh wow cool. Hi!

Well, I'm no expert but bacterial infections can cause "flu-like" symptoms. Cyanobacteria often release toxins, and some dinoflagellates as well like ostreopsis and karenia brevis.

Also just regular human illness like the flu, coronavirus, or the common cold. There was a post on this forum from a guy who was convinced he had palytoxin poisoning, until he saw a doctor and tested positive for covid-19.

Edit: I may have confused your name and I apologize. Hosts on Reef beef are Rich and Ben, right? If you don't mind me asking, which are you?