Overflow idea

[elysics]

a pipe that is 2" or lower below my water level will never suck air from that deep

Well there are two options:

1. You throw caution to the wind and choose a pipe size that will restrict the flow, i.e. the pipe always runs at maximum capacity and is full of water, then the quote will be correct. That means no emergency drain though, any clog or even just growth in the pipes while you are away and your floor is a waterpark.

2. You size the pipe such that there is a reserve capacity for more flow, that means you either get a whirlpool, or more likely your water level drops down to the top of the pipe. And air comes rushing along in the pipe, making a bunch of noise

You don't get to choose a water level, the combination of drain and return pump choose for you

 

[FSP]

A siphon without a dry line would not be welcome in my house

If a middle column overflow is out of the equation, the closest thing I can think of to what you're describing is one of those "zero edge" (or whatever they were called) tanks were water flows over the sides of the tank itself into a basin. Sounds like a maintenance nightmare, but you wouldn't see any plumbing or possibly anything else given the movement of the water and surface growth

 

[Arsay Jr]

Well, its not one pipe, if i understood what is going on..

There is one large diameter pipe for drain, and inside her is smaller diameter pipe for return.

Personaly, i would newer trust valve to have pressure of whole tank water on itself, not even for cleaning.

Also, i would newer relly on single pipe, all u need is single crack, flaw in material, etc, and there is no limit how much water can be drained.....

I'm getting somewhere, thanks!

I did it with a 4" pipe and a 1" return line and it wasn't easy but it was sexy.

Did u not block the overflow way?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Well.., That makes sence. But most systems have an overflow box with the main drain and the emergency drain, right?
but as I would not have a "box" I would not need a emergency drain because the main drain would be under my water level and so when my pump fail for some reason, it would only drop to just below my main drain (the acrylic tube) in the display and my sump would catch all that water.. and so technically it replaces at the same time the emergency drain. So that is why I said that it would be "2in1".

That is not the description of an emergency drain. An emergency drain is for if the main drain becomes blocked, so water doesn't overflow your tank.
There is no hobby term for "keeping your entire tank from draining into the sump when the pump is off."

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

a pipe that is 2" or lower below my water level will never suck air from that deep.

Wanna bet???

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I have not seen anyone doing this (probably cause its a stupid idea). I have been thinking about leaking problems and how I would be able to solve them etc.
I also want to know if it's dangerous for the fish.. obviously I would make something that fit the pipe so they cant enter. BUT will they be sucked towards it when they pass or not?

To the first point in red, it's not "stupid" per se, but it's ill advised and not at all practical.

To the second point, while you will certainly need a strainer on a full siphon drain pipe (even when using an overflow box), realize that this is one more opportunity for the pipe to become partially to completely blocked, and then without an emergency pipe, your tank will overflow.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Ok, I'm sitting here thinking about how you could do this...
First, as others have said, any pipe - clear, white, black, or any other color - is going to get dirty. And a clear pipe is going to grow algae like crazy! But if you insist on staying with the "no overflow" design (the overflow is the box that water flows 'over' to get to the drains), then why not have 2 or 3 drain pipes? Put each one in a corner and make 1 the full siphon and keep the others taller so they can handle the water when the main drain slows down (which it will because it will be full of algae)? There's nothing that says a Herbie or Bean Animal has to have all the drains in one area.

*Another thing I just thought of... How tall is your return pipe going to be? Because when your pump is turned off, that pipe will become another drain...

 

[Arsay Jr]

Ok, I'm sitting here thinking about how you could do this...
First, as others have said, any pipe - clear, white, black, or any other color - is going to get dirty. And a clear pipe is going to grow algae like crazy! But if you insist on staying with the "no overflow" design (the overflow is the box that water flows 'over' to get to the drains), then why not have 2 or 3 drain pipes? Put each one in a corner and make 1 the full siphon and keep the others taller so they can handle the water when the main drain slows down (which it will because it will be full of algae)? There's nothing that says a Herbie or Bean Animal has to have all the drains in one area.

*Another thing I just thought of... How tall is your return pipe going to be? Because when your pump is turned off, that pipe will become another drain...

Yes, I know that a clear pipe will get dirty and grow algae. I would mount it on a bulkhead with a valve underneath and screw it off to clean it on a regular basis.

So - now I do know alot more thanks to you guys and I do realise that my idea is getting more and more impossible. Your idea of placing them in diff places is also an option.. I've learned here about the large dia. return pipe with smaller dia. return pipe into it.

My return would not drain because I would use (sorry i don't know the English word) a thing with only one way waterflow. Other way around a lit would block it.

Also wanna say that i'm not here to have a debate with experianced reefers on what is or is not "technically possible" .

 

[KStatefan]

My return would not drain because I would use (sorry i don't know the English word) a thing with only one way waterflow. Other way around a lit would block it.

Design your system to hold the water if the check valve fails because at some point it will.

 

[Koh23]

That is all good, until it flood.

And then, u realize that emergency backup needs to have emergency backup inside emergency backup...

In other words - dont trust one way valve, all it takes is one small snail, and it become uselles.

I have one on my return line, to break syphon, but, backup is small hole drilled in nozle, to suck air within seconds when pump is off. And that backup have backup - if all fails, return nozzle is positioned in that way so it can suck some anount of water, but sump can hold tripple more.

With all that, do i trust my security measures? Not a bit.

Pump off, somebody needs to monitor what happens, laws of physics says that its impossible to flood, but still....

 

[All_talk]

A couple comments...

I see a few people saying that if you have a single drain and it clogs your tank is going to overflow, this should not be the case. In a well designed system the tank will always take the volume of the return chamber, the pump should run dry before the tank overflows. And by the same thinking, the sump should always take the drain back (siphon) from the tank without a check valve.

I have conceived of the tube inside of a tube setup (not built), it should be pretty easy to put together with a few modified PVC fittings. In my case I was looking to build a dual drain (open & emergency) through one bulkhead fitting, but it certainly could be used for drain and return as well.

To the OP. I fear your clear standpipe drain will not be nearly as invisible as you are hoping, and to get your desired effect of a inland without exposed plumbing you should be looking for a solution where the return and drain come up from the middle, as other have suggested. There are many ways to do this and some could be quite compact. But there may be some compromises, the center volcano will need to come up to the surface of the water and I think you will need to live with some drain noise without multiple drain pipes.

 

[Arsay Jr]

In a well designed system the tank will always take the volume of the return chamber, the pump should run dry before the tank overflows.

You are totally right. Since water stopped going in the sump.., the return chamber will be left with no water to overflow your tank.

the center volcano will need to come up to the surface of the water and I think you will need to live with some drain noise without multiple drain pipes.

Yes. My rockwork would have come above the water level anyways (I will add a Tilandsien on top). I would make the return pipe come out of the drainpipe underwater. And I could still try to reduce the noise, won't I ?

 

[FSP]

Not sure about the pump going dry thing. I'd rather use a drain system that accounts for blockage than drop my display level and/or shrink my return section
A large return section is valuable even with an ATO, and I think it looks better having the water line near the top, not a few inches down.

 

[All_talk]

Not sure about the pump going dry thing. I'd rather use a drain system that accounts for blockage than drop my display level and/or shrink my return section
A large return section is valuable even with an ATO, and I think it looks better having the water line near the top, not a few inches down.

Absolutely, a redundant drain system is the best practice.

I don't think I would consider running a reef tank without an ATO, but if you did, a large return section would be essential.

I would never say my current system is a example of how to setup a sump, but I have a single drain from a overflow box (siphon tube type), my water line is at the plastic rim and my return chamber level is set (by ATO) so that the tank will not overflow if the drain is blocked. Its been running this way for 12+ years without a flood (knock on wood).