Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[brandon429]

Alex that’s incredibly helpful input

I never thought to ask in all these systems about other locations of feed and invader mass that would otherwise pump back into the tank had you not shown where they can reside

pre work pic planning always becomes a hyper focus on the display tank-
Sand sand sand / skip cycle becomes the focus, makes me wonder who else I left with a pristine sandbed and cruddy sump

But thick biofilms, reef floc, time accumulations those catch and hold invaders + feed it’s a universal rule.

what we clean out of sandbeds gets stuck on -any area that isn’t cleaned, over time...walls of tank, skimmer bodies, all of this is cumulative eutrophication

By being thorough in nature you highlighted for us another 10-20% source area for invader cells I am not used to planning out, yay and thank you. Left untouched those zones provide invader cells to slough off and continue the battle.

** you might be naming locations people do not think about in dino invasion threads* where they’ll spend hours detailing a display tank, but as you show might not be thinking about that inner area out of sight pumping dinos back in

we want these tanks ripped clean, actions here are supposed to be the most thorough compared to any thread because we are proving bacteria tolerate it fine and we’re hoping to show you can force compliance in most systems. If we aren’t cleaning top to bottom then we’re not testing true rip cleaning- noted
B

 

[Alexreefer]

Glad to have helped will continue to update

 

[Alexreefer]

Got my icp back and all params are good. Phosphate is 0.09. Silicates came back at .9 dont know if that is enough to grow diatoms

 

[Alexreefer]

Talked to john at reefcleaners and he said he had problem with the same sand I currently have which is the Carib sea indo pacific black. He told me the black sand leaches silicates and he switched over to all-white aragonite sand and the silicates went away without any other changes. Do you believe I should follow this?

 

[brandon429]

He may know of patterns associated with the black sand from selling clean up crews / customers might have mentioned that to him not sure but for us it shouldn't matter for these reasons:

No prior non compliant tanks with black sand, and the amount of work currently required to keep a clean display for you is on par with the system description regardless of sand type. Frogger from a few pages back had a similar challenge, very set-in invader/took export work. Your tank hasn't behaved in an unpredictable manner yet to look for clues beyond simple strong invader happened by, found some feed, and a system that allowed initial mass

The price of waiting to de cloud/clean is taking a chance in letting a particularly strong invader become part of the uglies phase of a new tank.

To not pre-rinse sand, as most people advise on forums, is to give fine powdered silicate to new invaders-using any sand.

This is why I always know when I read on the forums advice from the majority about "leave it alone" or "uglies phase, it'll go away" I know they secretly don't know the advice is causing more invaded tanks than any phosphate reading ever will, they keep advising people do the #1 inaction that brings a tank to invasion


I also take time to track the threads where people choose to do hands off work and cure early invasion strictly through the water-6 mos is average. When they're lucky to win and not by cleaning out waste, it takes half a year on average before they could begin enjoying the tank. How are the next succession of invaders going to enjoy those systems right when they're three years of strong sps growth? Thinking ahead is pre rinsing and being cloud free occasionally

Of course we should be disallowing any uglies phase in reefing where possible

Anyone who runs tank rescue threads where real challenges appear knows you better clean that junk early and fast lol, hand guide early don't hesitate and grow possibly the strongest cyano we've seen lol

No, opt out of the risk.

Anyone telling us to leave alone an invasion in a system that can otherwise be accessed is more of the problem than the actual invasion lol hilarious irony.

Here are the tanks that that we leave alone to see what happens when they're new, uglies phase happens here only:

-Huge massive tanks outside your full access ability. Take the chance, price of gallons.
-builds with unlimited budgets. If starting over ad infinitum is within the budget, have an uglies phase.
-systems where inaccessible amounts or stacks of rocks literally prevents hand guiding. (Don't start off new tanks with tons of rock, work up to it if ever)


I would never actually recommend that you buy a clean up crew until your invasion is fully beaten without them. The pure thesis of this thread is manual direct control only, which links cures to what works repeatedly to earn them or not

Clean up crews are waste adders, big-time. May or may not eat the target


Clean up crews are external locus of control reefing, meaning we cross our fingers and hope for something else to possibly work


That doesn't mean they're bad to use cleanup crews have saved many tanks

It just means in the end we choose to be invaded or we choose not to, those with direct access options can be uninvaded.
It's ok to try them if you like they don't harm at all. But if they don't work, you still have standard cleaning options to consider for central locus of control reefing

One upgrade cleaning approach all large tanks can consider is fixing your invasion without any sand in the tank whatsoever, you can remove it all

See if rocks comply, then you'll know if black sand mattered before you purchase any replacement as a guess

If you don't want to make up a full tanks worth of change water than just drain that water off and catch it into brute containers leaving the muddy mess at the bottom

That's how you can remove your sandbed and not have to make up a bunch of new water

One of the most important themes in our thread is that clean up crews are preventative, not in reaction to an invasion.

If you can sustain the tank without invasion without cuc, then buying a clean up crew becomes a fully different venture. External locus of control reefing has been taught to us by nearly all book authors and post authors as the inflexible rule of reefing. This thread will self destruct as soon as that becomes statistically sound advice, nobody will need us

 

[brandon429]

The basic takeaway is that every zoo in existence has filters that have to be cleaned and backflushed.

Every public aquarium, detritus flushed out of filters by routine

Our reef tanks are filters, the actual rock and sand

They do become -somewhat- self regulating in time in a reef tank given some luck and engineering planning, but the fallback is always go-to hand cleaning, backflushing of waste... We attain very high fix rates using only free and old school biology and we want to convey that we ourselves can pre-design any reef tank to be accessible, reverse-engineered from these pages of challenge tanks, and in the end we'll produce more animals with less loss. It's all our choice. We keep our own reefs uninvaded always~

You have ways to study if the sand is a cause or not, yank it out if you want

 

[Alexreefer]

He may know of patterns associated with the black sand from selling clean up crews / customers might have mentioned that to him not sure but for us it shouldn't matter for these reasons:

No prior non compliant tanks with black sand, and the amount of work currently required to keep a clean display for you is on par with the system description regardless of sand type. Frogger from a few pages back had a similar challenge, very set-in invader/took export work. Your tank hasn't behaved in an unpredictable manner yet to look for clues beyond simple strong invader happened by, found some feed, and a system that allowed initial mass

The price of waiting to de cloud/clean is taking a chance in letting a particularly strong invader become part of the uglies phase of a new tank.

To not pre-rinse sand, as most people advise on forums, is to give fine powdered silicate to new invaders-using any sand.

This is why I always know when I read on the forums advice from the majority about "leave it alone" or "uglies phase, it'll go away" I know they secretly don't know the advice is causing more invaded tanks than any phosphate reading ever will, they keep advising people do the #1 inaction that brings a tank to invasion


I also take time to track the threads where people choose to do hands off work and cure early invasion strictly through the water-6 mos is average. When they're lucky to win and not by cleaning out waste, it takes half a year on average before they could begin enjoying the tank. How are the next succession of invaders going to enjoy those systems right when they're three years of strong sps growth? Thinking ahead is pre rinsing and being cloud free occasionally

Of course we should be disallowing any uglies phase in reefing where possible

Anyone who runs tank rescue threads where real challenges appear knows you better clean that junk early and fast lol, hand guide early don't hesitate and grow possibly the strongest cyano we've seen lol

No, opt out of the risk.

Anyone telling us to leave alone an invasion in a system that can otherwise be accessed is more of the problem than the actual invasion lol hilarious irony.

Here are the tanks that that we leave alone to see what happens when they're new, uglies phase happens here only:

-Huge massive tanks outside your full access ability. Take the chance, price of gallons.
-builds with unlimited budgets. If starting over ad infinitum is within the budget, have an uglies phase.
-systems where inaccessible amounts or stacks of rocks literally prevents hand guiding. (Don't start off new tanks with tons of rock, work up to it if ever)


I would never actually recommend that you buy a clean up crew until your invasion is fully beaten without them. The pure thesis of this thread is manual direct control only, which links cures to what works repeatedly to earn them or not

Clean up crews are waste adders, big-time. May or may not eat the target


Clean up crews are external locus of control reefing, meaning we cross our fingers and hope for something else to possibly work


That doesn't mean they're bad to use cleanup crews have saved many tanks

It just means in the end we choose to be invaded or we choose not to, those with direct access options can be uninvaded.
It's ok to try them if you like they don't harm at all. But if they don't work, you still have standard cleaning options to consider for central locus of control reefing

One upgrade cleaning approach all large tanks can consider is fixing your invasion without any sand in the tank whatsoever, you can remove it all

See if rocks comply, then you'll know if black sand mattered before you purchase any replacement as a guess

If you don't want to make up a full tanks worth of change water than just drain that water off and catch it into brute containers leaving the muddy mess at the bottom

That's how you can remove your sandbed and not have to make up a bunch of new water

One of the most important themes in our thread is that clean up crews are preventative, not in reaction to an invasion.

If you can sustain the tank without invasion without cuc, then buying a clean up crew becomes a fully different venture. External locus of control reefing has been taught to us by nearly all book authors and post authors who aren't here now to clean up the mess, free of charge.

Ok will stay on my path of cleaning. Seems to be less and less of the diatoms eveyday. I am down to looking at every little detail to find where the problems may come from. At this point I am satisfied with my tank in a way but will wait and see how my tank does while im gone for 55 days. Also hoping after I come back the addition of corals and fish will help stabilize the tank by taking up real estate. The growth of corals will help suppress the invader and make the tank look less plain. But for right now will not add or change anything before my vacation

Thanks. Alex

 

[brandon429]

Yep agreed

In case new additions vectored in anything/gotta be there to see or else have one heck of a trained eye tank sitter heh

 

[Alexreefer]

I have started to clean my food( taking the water out after thawing out the food) and started changing carbon and gfo regularly hope this helps with the tank. Nitrates and phosphates are steady and looking good. Tank looks clean (fingers crossed)

 

[brandon429]

hey you might have mentioned earlier, didn't know GFO is on the tank

GFO is associated with side invasions, already noted but its buried in pages and pages. interesting tidbit, its ok to use GFO but specifically it causes side invasions after it cures a primary target, the invasions vary. they're always light or dark colored matted invaders we never did microscope ID back then, that's rather new since amazon made it so cheap for everyone.

The fact you are using GFO factors for sure. still, cleaningcan win

 

[Alexreefer]

hey you might have mentioned earlier, didn't know GFO is on the tank

GFO is associated with side invasions, already noted but its buried in pages and pages. interesting tidbit, its ok to use GFO but specifically it causes side invasions after it cures a primary target, the invasions vary. they're always light or dark colored matted invaders we never did microscope ID back then, that's rather new since amazon made it so cheap for everyone.

The fact you are using GFO factors for sure. still, cleaningcan win

Ok after reading this I took gfo offline and only running carbon.

 

[brandon429]

Those who practice nutrient tuning, ideal nitrate and phosphate readings, in order to boost competitive microorganisms also discourage regular use of GFO until it has been engineered into the system. It pulls their ratios out of whack unless it’s designed into the new approach


keep on hand in case we need to add it back one day but truly de clouding your system resets the reasons we have to scrub phosphates...you already have fine source water and the tank is pretty clean. Hey see if you can find eight or ten bucks worth of any of today’s digestion type bottle bac, not cycling bac, do try

I coulda sworn brightwell aquatics has a new bac formula not for cycling but for battling invasions as a pro biotic, harmless to try

Very possibly can work too. You’ve been reducing mass by hand, it has less to work on compared to most tanks.

 

[Alexreefer]

Those who practice nutrient tuning, ideal nitrate and phosphate readings, in order to boost competitive microorganisms also discourage regular use of GFO until it has been engineered into the system. It pulls their ratios out of whack unless it’s designed into the new approach


keep on hand in case we need to add it back one day but truly de clouding your system resets the reasons we have to scrub phosphates...you already have fine source water and the tank is pretty clean. Hey see if you can find eight or ten bucks worth of any of today’s digestion type bottle bac, not cycling bac, do try

I coulda sworn brightwell aquatics has a new bac formula not for cycling but for battling invasions as a pro biotic, harmless to try

Very possibly can work too. You’ve been reducing mass by hand, it has less to work on compared to most tanks.

Ok will see. Any ideas what would work?

 

[xiholdtruex]

update 9 months 24 days approximately after a rip clean. Had a few anemones give me some issues and melt then had one have 10-15 babies lol tank is looking good coraline algae took off and added some more corals. did not wc for a month and had two little poofs of hair algae appear. lifted out one of the rocks to hand guide out and drop test and noticed under the rocks there appears to be detritus building but in all the sand able to be sifted by the nassarius snails and sand vac is clean. so far no issues other than that.

 

[cvrle1]

Not sure if this was discussed previously, but what is the best way of going about keep clean sand fresh, if you wont be using it for few months? I got a bunch of sand from previous owner, cleaned it all up just to see how it would go, and have it in 2 big buckets. Issue is that I wont be using it for at least a month before I start setting up the tank. We are talking more that 70 lbs of sand easily. If I leave it damp, it will start to stink, so whats the best way of going about this? Thanks

 

[brandon429]

Hey for sure it'll hold if it's rinsed clean of organics before storing


Lastly, to accommodate some of the bacteria that will certainly adhere to the grains we'd not store the sand in closed container/guaranteed stink

If you held it in a brute container and kept the salinity anywhere near reef levels all the bac will stay alive w no heating or circ

If the sand has clouding in it/that's lots of sand/ then stink it will but if it's really clean and kept open topped it'll just sit there alive, you do not have to ghost feed or add ammonia

 

[brandon429]

xiholdtruex

Thank you for the long run updates that's our longest tracked follow up so far

These tanks really present ranging compliance levels to one-off rip cleans. Its my opinion based on 23 pages that about 60-70% of first time rip cleans will sustain without invasion, and then some presentations like Andrews or Froggers are simply noncompliant strains and require exceptional detailing

the majority really are pretty easy repair jobs though, making the work not cause a cycle is the most important part, basically the statistics here say if you own a nano rip cleaning will keep it uninvaded...preventative cleaning or reaction doesn't really matter much. large tanks need to plan the approach better so there's less chance they have to rework it all again (actions like fully removing the sandbed and not putting it back until the rock + coral setup complies with no invasion)

 

[m0jjen]

Short summary of my rinse and aftermath. SPS dying, green cyano, red cyano and dino presists. Cant say i recommend this.

 

[brandon429]

nope

doesn't fit any pattern. if youd like to analyze, then post up some details like updated shot... quick drop test assess etc something so we can see how thorough you worked. some interim shots

if you allowed full remassing of invader, meaning if you have something to photo other than a clean tank, that's polar opposite of every recommend here. lets see details

give something to work with for being a 23 page outlier. Not saying you don't have the first documented issue, but I know things that cause sps death too unrelated to rinsing, we deserve more input than that, and follow up details. active ones, lets check it. post update stuff

you mention dino

for the last several pages I listed very detailed techniques for large tankers to battle dinos, such as no sandbed. if you have rocks only with cyano, lets see one pass a clouding test as an update, we always check for clouding/nonrinsing where an invader exists/persists here.

we talk about lowering white level lighting after a rip clean....blue it up, lower that white photointensity is discussed on prior works.


has that been done


many factors to read about here and plan for and discuss on all tanks that's for sure.

we aren't selling a one off cure for someone who might have hesitantly cleaned, we're selling skip cycle work for being thorough. Update pics will show degree of application, Im interested as we want to lessen losses and increase gains, curious to know what aspects of rinsing without a recycle didn't work for you.

we need to know details like if GFO is being used

do you have a filthy sump full of dinos, things like that

I always like to be able to see how much customization of the method was applied vs outcome

 

[m0jjen]

nope

doesn't fit any pattern. easy to make a one off call though, a guess at causatives. if youd like to analyze, then post up some details like updated shot... quick drop test assess etc something so we can see how thorough you worked. some interim shots

if you allowed full remassing of invader, meaning if you have something to photo other than a clean tank, that's polar opposite of every recommend here. lets see details

give something to work with for being a 23 page outlier. Not saying you don't have the first documented issue, but I know things that cause sps death too unrelated to rinsing, we deserve more input than that, and follow up details. active ones, lets check it. post update stuff

While i do have dinos they might very well contribute aswell as starvation or whatever really. But the content of this thread is leaning toward rinsing preventing pest organisms as cyano and possible even dino from removing organic loads from the sandbed. I might be completely off?

I rinsed my sand about 3 weeks ago and from that point on its gone downhill. Nutriants has been constant and nothing else has really changed since im at "cant be arsed mode" and will let nature take its course now. I cant conclude that rinsingis the soul reason for my change in problem nor can i say its not a factor.