Nuisance ID - Including Photos, Parameters and Description

[Brew12]

lol. New school. The only debatable is once using vibrant to kill micro fauna and then chemi clean to kill unknown bacterial strains and other possible microfauna is, you then become susceptible to a bloom of the next dominant strain of whatever comes next. I've never quite gotten how one gets past that save to keep using a bottle of something .

Completely agree. However, I have found that it takes almost a month to get the impact of Vibrant out of my tank. If he is going to do it, now is the time. It might help keep the bacteria at bay while the algae recovers. I do agree that at some point the bandaid has to be ripped off and a natural balance and healthy food chain must be re-established.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Completely agree. However, I have found that it takes almost a month to get the impact of Vibrant out of my tank. If he is going to do it, now is the time. It might help keep the bacteria at bay while the algae recovers. I do agree that at some point the bandaid has to be ripped off and a natural balance and healthy food chain must be re-established.

yea, good points. My concerns are that the slime seems like a dino. Its usually snails and such that are effected in high numbers. Never heard of it "stinging" corals, but that could easily be smother.
We definitely have seen Vibrant OD's that it 100% looked like dinos. No scope was used in those cases..

 

[Brew12]

yea, good points. My concerns are that the slime seems like a dino. Its usually snails and such that are effected in high numbers. Never heard of it "stinging" corals, but that could easily be smother.
We definitely have seen Vibrant OD's that it 100% looked like dinos. No scope was used in those cases..

It looks a lot like dino's. The large pH swings and lack of gas bubbles make me think it is a different species of cyano.

Might be worth running a test and taking a small sample of the slime with a tiny amount of Chemiclean and seeing what happens. At least try to evaluate the potential effectiveness before using it in the DT.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

It looks a lot like dino's. The large pH swings and lack of gas bubbles make me think it is a different species of cyano.

Might be worth running a test and taking a small sample of the slime with a tiny amount of Chemiclean and seeing what happens. At least try to evaluate the potential effectiveness before using it in the DT.

yea agreed. Id also test to see if its co2 or alk causing the swings. anything photosynthetic loves low ph/high co2. thus this cure for dinos. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php
and its also the basis of the bryopsis cure using Ph. Another one of the reasons dinos and cyano are so prevalent in dry rock tanks. but the source is the aragonite its self.

 

[zachxlutz]

It looks a lot like dino's. The large pH swings and lack of gas bubbles make me think it is a different species of cyano.

Might be worth running a test and taking a small sample of the slime with a tiny amount of Chemiclean and seeing what happens. At least try to evaluate the potential effectiveness before using it in the DT.

yea agreed. Id also test to see if its co2 or alk causing the swings. anything photosynthetic loves low ph/high co2. thus this cure for dinos. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php
and its also the basis of the bryopsis cure using Ph. Another one of the reasons dinos and cyano are so prevalent in dry rock tanks. but the source is the aragonite its self.

The pH swings have been consistent, prior to this outbreak. I have had the same swings since I started monitoring pH. It averages out to about .2 swing from night to day. I dose cal/alk on the hour every hour with a 10 minute delay from the alk to the cal. ie. 12:00 alk, 12:10 cal, 1:00 alk, 1:10 cal, continuing around the clock. Would it be wise to only dose the alk at night to try and boost the pH? How does pH swing play a role in this?

I'd like to give the chemiclean test a shot. I'd need some idea on how to go about that. Just put a little bit in a cup with the dinos/bacteria, whatever it is?

 

[mcarroll]

Sorry in advance for wandering here...

I am not convinced that this is dino's.....but even if it is, it might be a type you don't want to zap-now-think-later like.....symbiodinium. That's a very real possibility – not unheard of. Espeically if your corals are bleaching or near-bleaching. PO4 starvation makes this a risk.

Without presuming these are necessarily dino's in this thread, I'd suggest checking out a different thread on dino's:
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

That 2006 article is very good...but it's from 2006. If you look at some of the links @mcarroll and @taricha have posted to that "other" dino thread (4000 posts), there's a lot of new info.

A nice bunch of related links are also on my blog's Algae section. (Blog is quicker than going through the other dino thread....which has so many "surprise endings" along the way that I think M Knight Shamalan would be jealous.)

Starvation treatments like bio-pellets, vodka dosing, et al, all seem to encourage unnatural situations to develop (even by aquarium standards) within a body of water that has a huge amount of nutrients being pumped into it on a daily basis.

To the end that "starvation"/nutrient reduction could be a useful tool at all (subject of another whole post), we're doing the "starving" from the wrong end of the equation, if you're with my thinking on this (livestock levels = feeding rates).....the problem is on the nutrient supply side in every case I've looked at....not with the tank, yet the tank gets all the treatments.

The fact that people are applying these starvation tools to brand new tanks now – not just problem situations where there's an argument for using some tool or other to change the situation – seems to be a big factor. (Haven't read back on this whole story yet to know for sure on this case here....but that's a current trend among outbreak sufferers.)

In nature, these events are called "brown tides" "red tides" and more generally "harmful agae blooms". HAB's if you're into acronyms like I am. The "harmful" effects which HAB's can bring are various since cyano, diatoms, dinoflagellates and more are capable of contributing to the phenomena and they occur under lots of different environmental conditions in nature.

The equation is always similar though....some element becomes oversupplied due to an environmental disturbance causing another element to become growth-limiting – the limit (i.e. starvation) of which provokes a nasty response from some member of the tank's microbiome. oxygen, phosphorus and nitrogen limits are all known to provoke such responses....I'm sure there are others too.

 

[zachxlutz]

Sorry in advance for wandering here...

I am not convinced that this is dino's.....but even if it is, it might be a type you don't want to zap-now-think-later like.....symbiodinium. That's a very real possibility – not unheard of. Espeically if your corals are bleaching or near-bleaching. PO4 starvation makes this a risk.

Without presuming these are necessarily dino's in this thread, I'd suggest checking out a different thread on dino's:
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

That 2006 article is very good...but it's from 2006. If you look at some of the links @mcarroll and @taricha have posted to that "other" dino thread (4000 posts), there's a lot of new info.

A nice bunch of related links are also on my blog's Algae section. (Blog is quicker than going through the other dino thread....which has so many "surprise endings" along the way that I think M Knight Shamalan would be jealous.)

Starvation treatments like bio-pellets, vodka dosing, et al, all seem to encourage unnatural situations to develop (even by aquarium standards) within a body of water that has a huge amount of nutrients being pumped into it on a daily basis.

To the end that "starvation"/nutrient reduction could be a useful tool at all (subject of another whole post), we're doing the "starving" from the wrong end of the equation, if you're with my thinking on this (livestock levels = feeding rates).....the problem is on the nutrient supply side in every case I've looked at....not with the tank, yet the tank gets all the treatments.

The fact that people are applying these starvation tools to brand new tanks now – not just problem situations where there's an argument for using some tool or other to change the situation – seems to be a big factor. (Haven't read back on this whole story yet to know for sure on this case here....but that's a current trend among outbreak sufferers.)

In nature, these events are called "brown tides" "red tides" and more generally "harmful agae blooms". HAB's if you're into acronyms like I am. The "harmful" effects which HAB's can bring are various since cyano, diatoms, dinoflagellates and more are capable of contributing to the phenomena and they occur under lots of different environmental conditions in nature.

The equation is always similar though....some element becomes oversupplied due to an environmental disturbance causing another element to become growth-limiting – the limit (i.e. starvation) of which provokes a nasty response from some member of the tank's microbiome. oxygen, phosphorus and nitrogen limits are all known to provoke such responses....I'm sure there are others too.

I've had a look through that thread and I've read chunks of the other one as well... I'm leaning towards thinking this all stems from the strongest algae/bacteria that the Vibrant couldn't combat and it's now taken the low phosphate situation in the tank and taken off with it. I believe it probably would have laid dormant if it was being outcompeted by other more controllable algaes.

I stripped the water in the tank bare from the get go. I was running GFO and changing it out constantly, targeting that 0 phosphate... and succeeding. The tank was a barren wasteland for the first 4 months of the tank. I haven't run any since November. The tank was started in September. I started the KNO3 dosing in early December and the Vibrant shortly after that, as I was dealing with some GHA on the back glass and plastic bits in the tank. If I could go back again and start over, I never would have used the Vibrant or only used it to get it under control and then backed off but I continued dosing as I saw no ill effects until this started popping up.

For the record, I was asked to take some of the stuff out of the tank and swirl it around in a container to see if it reconstituted. It seems like it did. It seemed to form pillar like structures within the container within the first 10 minutes or so.

Immediately after swirling the water around and agitating it with a baster:

10 minutes or so later, you can see how it's reconstituted and formed pillars and stringy sections:

I think I'm having a HAB!

 

[mcarroll]

Yep!

Along with the nutrient situation, definitely work anything else out in the tank that needs stabilizing.

I'm not sure if you were onto something with pH swings, but if there's an actual problem contributing to the swings then fix that problem. (Everyone's tank has day/night pH swings though....don't presume it's a problem just cuz you see it happen on a pH meter.)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Man. I'd star thinking about a $16 can of Fiji mud. GARF grunge if you want to get fancy.

 

[zachxlutz]

Yep!

Along with the nutrient situation, definitely work anything else out in the tank that needs stabilizing.

I'm not sure if you were onto something with pH swings, but if there's an actual problem contributing to the swings then fix that problem. (Everyone's tank has day/night pH swings though....don't presume it's a problem just cuz you see it happen on a pH meter.)

Do you think a swing of .2 from night to day is a big swing? I'll research this further. I could change my dosing schedule to dose the alk at night to help decrease the swing or even dose kalk while the pH drops. hmmmmm

Man. I'd star thinking about a $16 can of Fiji mud. GARF grunge if you want to get fancy.

Funny you should say that, I posted this morning on my local forums asking around for some very well established sand/mud/rubble from a local reefers tank. It definitely won't hurt.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Use caution doing that too. You can wind up with some serious funk.

 

[zachxlutz]

Use caution doing that too. You can wind up with some serious funk.

I'm going to use extreme discretion when finding a system to borrow some gunk from. I want good gunk not bad funk!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I'm going to use extreme discretion when finding a system to borrow some gunk from. I want good gunk not bad funk!

The Fiji mud is microfauna. I cycled a tank with it and got mini sponges corralines fromiferans and I'm pretty sure worms.
It's literally mud scooped from the bottom of a reef.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/natures-lil-miracles-a-cycling-experiment.251318/
Looks like I didn't follow up with the rest of the strange that poped up. It was pretty wild.

 

[zachxlutz]

The Fiji mud is microfauna. I cycled a tank with it and got mini sponges corralines fromiferans and I'm pretty sure worms.
It's literally mud scooped from the bottom of a reef.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/natures-lil-miracles-a-cycling-experiment.251318/
Looks like I didn't follow up with the rest of the strange that poped up. It was pretty wild.

Interesting. Might be worth a shot!

Here's that 5 minute timelapse of the stuff reconstituting.

 

[mcarroll]

Do you think a swing of .2 from night to day is a big swing?

No.

 

[bubbaque]

I'm pretty sure it's dinos. You can see in my pics I was having the same stuff grow on the bottom of my frags. I put it under a microscope and looks like dinos. Mine doesn't really have air bubbles either. I hooked up a uv sterilizer and blow the stuff off a couple times a day and I would say I am starting to win the war. Btw my dinos popped up when I dosed no3 in my tank.

 

[zachxlutz]

I'm pretty sure it's dinos. You can see in my pics I was having the same stuff grow on the bottom of my frags. I put it under a microscope and looks like dinos. Mine doesn't really have air bubbles either. I hooked up a uv sterilizer and blow the stuff off a couple times a day and I would say I am starting to win the war. Btw my dinos popped up when I dosed no3 in my tank.

View attachment 526706

View attachment 526708

Interesting. Do you keep track of your NO3/PO4 levels? Did you dose up your nitrates and maintain zero or near-zero phosphate levels? Do you think your nitrate levels got disproportionately high in comparison to your phosphate levels?

 

[bubbaque]

No, my phosphate is .02 and nitrate was undetectable using salifert. I mixed up some no3 and dosed to 2ppm and within days the Dino showed up. I feed roughly 4 cubes of frozen a day. I use chaeto in my sump and it absorbs all nitrate. It grows from a baseball size to a watermelon in about a weeks time, so I know there is nitrate. My colors were not faded but just got caught up in reading about needing detectable nitrates and started dosing, huge mistake.

I reached out to some people who has been around a while and their tanks look amazing (mike and Terry and reefnjunkie) both of them said their nitrate is undetectable and said do not worry about it, just make sure you feed enough.

I stopped dosing no3 and turned on my uv sterilizer and dinos have almost all disappeared. My no3 has went close to being undetectable. I think people who MAY need to dose no3 are people who are not using a method to export no3 and still have undetectable levels.

 

[Brew12]

I think people who MAY need to dose no3 are people who are not using a method to export no3 and still have undetectable levels.

This +1

Corals can compete with algae for nutrients as long as the nutrients are available at some point.

 

[zachxlutz]

Update:

Crossing my fingers over here. I think I'm making some progress. It looks like the dinoflagellates are slowing down the spreading and possibly receding a bit. I've only been blowing it off of the corals and a little bit here and there when it's impeding on a coral. Additionally, I've been heavily feeding the tank and actively adding KNO3 to keep the nitrates at +/- 3 ppm. The tank is currently consuming about 1.5 ppm of NO3 every day. I think what's happening is the extra feeding is increasing the available phosphates and this is promoting desirable algal and coral growth, thus consuming both NO3 and PO4 in the process and hopefully outcompeting the dinoflagellates as a side effect. I've been tracking the phosphates daily and they are raising and holding steady at about 0.03 +/- 0.02. If I notice the phosphates dropping I'll just throw an extra couple pinches of food or an extra mysis cube. I see a few very small patches of fluffy turf type algae pop up underneath the stringy brown dinoflagellates in some nooks and crannies of the liverock. I think that's encouraging. I can add more snails to deal with that if the Foxface doesn't eat it up first. The macros in the sump seem to be growing and driving up the pH trend, it had been suppressed by about -.1 for the last few weeks. I've also had my calcium and alkalinity dosing off throughout this ordeal as consumption seemed to stop. It's been almost steady for a few weeks now but I think it's finally dropping. This would, in my opinion, indicate that the coral are kicking back into growth mode and consuming alkalinity. I'll continue to monitor and bring dosing back online as needed. One thing I have noticed is there is hardly any of the dinoflagellates in the sump. There is some green looking stuff on the heaters in the return chamber but that's been there for months and hasn't really done much, I assume it's a harmless cyano. I haven't dosed any Vibrant in 17 days. I really hope the bacteria from it are reaching their end of life and it's effects on the system will continue to diminish over time.

It's hard to discern in photos so I don't really have any to post but I'll keep updating this thread as I battle this nightmare.