Nitrate issue

[wgregww]

I have a FOWLR 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump been up for 8 months. I only have 2 fish and a bunch of CUC. I have not been able to get my Nitrates to stop rising. I don’t feed to much switched to only frozen couple of weeks ago. I started vodka dosing now my phosphates are getting low but not touching Nitrates. Sump has protein skimmer, 2 Xport NO3 dimpled bricks, bag of Matrix, Pentair UV. I change filter socks every 3 days.

what’s my next step?

 

[Stephen8169301]

What test kit do you use

 

[wgregww]

What test kit do you use

Hanna

 

[wgregww]

I have a FOWLR 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump been up for 8 months. I only have 2 fish and a bunch of CUC. I have not been able to get my Nitrates to stop rising. I don’t feed to much switched to only frozen couple of weeks ago. I started vodka dosing now my phosphates are getting low but not touching Nitrates. Sump has protein skimmer, 2 Xport NO3 dimpled bricks, bag of Matrix, Pentair UV. I change filter socks every 3 days.

what’s my next step?

sorry my readings are Phosphates .08 Nitrate 65

 

[Stephen8169301]

sorry my readings are Phosphates .08 Nitrate 65

How often do you do water changes and how much water do you remove?

 

[wgregww]

How often do you do water changes and how much water do you remove?

I only do 10% every month. I really don’t believe water changes is the answer to high Nitrates. I’ve had saltwater for years and have never had this problem before. I just can’t figure out what’s causing them to keep rising

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

Water changes aren't causing high nitrates, but they certainly help reduce them. Have you checked nitrite?

 

[wgregww]

Water changes aren't causing high nitrates, but they certainly help reduce them. Have you checked nitrite?

Yes they are 0

 

[kboogie]

I only do 10% every month. I really don’t believe water changes is the answer to high Nitrates. I’ve had saltwater for years and have never had this problem before. I just can’t figure out what’s causing them to keep rising

I also have a FOWLR tank which was victim to constantly rising nitrates with reasonable feeding. I firmly believe that nutrient export is critical and it should be done in a manner other than water changes. I understand why so many people use and believe water changes are appropriate for nutrient reduction but just like how you would not use water changes as the primary means to control ammonia and nitrite, I personally feel you should not use water changes as the primary means of nutrient control. I am a huge fan of the use of Macroalage and denitrification systems. I personally tried a chaeto reactor but unfortunately made my problem worse because my chaeto died releasing more nitrate into my aquarium bring my nitrates to over 100PPM. Three weeks ago I installed a Sulfur Denitrification Reactor which recently kicked in and wow the results are impressive.

Above is a chart of my nitrate levels and you can see that they are in a free fall thanks to my Sulfur Denitrification Reactor. It has the nitrate reducing power of a 12% daily water change and I don't have to do anything other than watch it do its work. Just like how you don't have to do anything to maintain your nitrifying bacteria. It does have a couple downsides. It takes some fiddling to dial it in (just like a protein skimmer) and it will dramatically reduce your alkalinity (and pH) so you have to add alkalinity regularly. I have a Aquamaxx TS-3 on my 300G FOWLR with a 50G sump. Deltec makes good ones. You can also DIY one using the info found here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-01/diy/index.php. There is also a non-sulfur based DIY denitrification system called Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer which is discussed here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poor-mans-nutrients-control-donovans-nitrate-destroyer.302685/

 

[Dan_P]

I have a FOWLR 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump been up for 8 months. I only have 2 fish and a bunch of CUC. I have not been able to get my Nitrates to stop rising. I don’t feed to much switched to only frozen couple of weeks ago. I started vodka dosing now my phosphates are getting low but not touching Nitrates. Sump has protein skimmer, 2 Xport NO3 dimpled bricks, bag of Matrix, Pentair UV. I change filter socks every 3 days.

what’s my next step?

The vodka dosing might not be high enough yet to reduce the nitrate concentration.

 

[CasperOe]

I'm not saying that regular water change is the only way to go, I am simply saying that by being religious about my 10% weekly water changes I have definitely experienced a succesful FOWLR tank.

If this is the right way for you? Maybe not, you could give it a go for a period of time to see if you achieve the nitrate levels you're looking for!

You could be a brave chap and play around with a Bio Pellet reactor?

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

I'm not saying that regular water change is the only way to go, I am simply saying that by being religious about my 10% weekly water changes I have definitely experienced a succesful FOWLR tank.

If this is the right way for you? Maybe not, you could give it a go for a period of time to see if you achieve the nitrate levels you're looking for!

You could be a brave chap and play around with a Bio Pellet reactor?

I agree and there is far more people who would agree with this. I'd rather change water than add another piece of filtration that can fail. Comparing the removal of ammonia and nitrite to the removal of nitrate is not apple to apples even though they can all be reduced via a water change.

I've had my best success with a heater, ATO and weekly water changes. No other mechanical filtration.

 

[kboogie]

I agree and there is far more people who would agree with this. I'd rather change water than add another piece of filtration that can fail. Comparing the removal of ammonia and nitrite to the removal of nitrate is not apple to apples even though they can all be reduced via a water change.

I've had my best success with a heater, ATO and weekly water changes. No other mechanical filtration.

It is interesting how ingrained water changes are in the hobby when so many things show they are one of the least effective methods for nutrient export and element replacement. I would say if you have a smaller system (less than 100 gallons) it is probably extremely effective and that might explain how this thinking came about. I bet most of us started with small aquariums and upgraded so our practices and habits stick. The days of water changes to manage alkalinity and calcium levels are long gone but for some reason, water changes to manage nutrient export are still the norm.

I am going to use my situation as an example and I know my situation is not unique. My nitrates were in the 50 to 60 range, PO4 close to zero. I was feeding my fish the bare minimum out of fear of contributing to my nitrate issue. I have a fleece roller so filter socks are not an issue. I want my nitrates to be near zero. To achieve that using the water change method I would have to start by doing a 90% water change (315 gallons) which would cost $150 of salt and require four days of RO production (roughly 4 gallons per hour and I have to monitor it so no overnights). That only gets me to about 5PPM then I have to do 50% water changes on weekly basis at a cost of $75 per week of salt just to maintain 5PPM which is still not near zero. In my scenario, it is $375 in month one and 10 days of effort to not achieve my goal with a $300 a month and 8 days of effort per month ongoing. The cost and effort just don't make sense. Sure I could upgrade my RO capability and cut the days in half but it is still an insane effort for the result.

Using bacteria for nutrient control, just like we do for Ammonia and Nitrite control, I spend $300 on a reactor, $12 on a pump, $50 for media totaling $362. It took 20 minutes to set up and five minutes each time I adjusted the flow rate for a total of one hour and twenty minutes spent in month one. I pretty much never have to touch it for two years where I will spend $25 on sulfur media. I also add 8 teaspoons of soda ash each week for alkalinity and pH. In my situation, it is an easy choice. I understand why for a much smaller aquarium the economics are different but the convenience is still there.

I do think more people should consider alternative nutrient export methods because they just make sense.

As it relates to a piece of hardware failing, I've never heard someone say "I shouldn't get a return pump because it might fail." or "I shouldn't get a protein skimmer because it might fail." So why would this piece of equipment be any different?

My goal is not to put done people who do water changes but instead provide objective data points in hopes of making people aware of alternatives that for most should be more effective and cheaper.

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

I don't see much in the way of data points. If Nutrients never reach the undesirable levels in the first place, then your 315 gallon water change isn't necessary.

Again you're not comparing apples to apples. A necessary mechanical piece of equipment such as a return pump is far different from an optional reactor.

If you have the means for that size tank, you can automate the water changes and save all the time. Sure you can still over stock and over feed, but those are all controllable factors into the outcome of your water quality.

Nobody is putting anybody down, but there is several processes that work. Saying there is proof that water changes don't work would be hard to put facts to considering the amount of people who have success with that alone.

 

[kboogie]

I don't see much in the way of data points. If Nutrients never reach the undesirable levels in the first place, then your 315 gallon water change isn't necessary.

Again you're not comparing apples to apples. A necessary mechanical piece of equipment such as a return pump is far different from an optional reactor.

If you have the means for that size tank, you can automate the water changes and save all the time. Sure you can still over stock and over feed, but those are all controllable factors into the outcome of your water quality.

Nobody is putting anybody down, but there is several processes that work. Saying there is proof that water changes don't work would be hard to put facts to considering the amount of people who have success with that alone.

While I disagree with your statement about the lack of data points (cost, inability to reach near zero on its own, etc), you point out items that I feel are important to clarify. The first point is the fact that you appropriately talk about stocking levels and feeding. It is important to note that in those examples the water changes are not the primary method for nutrient control. In those cases, water changes are a secondary or even tertiary method of nutrient control.

The second point I think is important to clarify is the statement about building out an automated water change system. I did research automated water changes and what I found is the set-up expense was higher ($500 to $1,000 depending on specific equipment) and it still had high ongoing maintenance expenses (salt). While still not having the ability within reason to get to new zero nitrates unless we are doing daily water changes and that means significantly higher expense. The other factor which made automated water changes less appealing is a point you bring up, the impact and increased likelihood of failures. When automated water changes fail they result in massive flooding (100+ gallons) or deadly salinity changes. Both of these are far more impactful and more likely than a pump failing on a reactor or the amount of water that results from a bad seal on the reactor.

As I said before, I just want to provide data points around an alternative method which on paper should get more consideration. While also trying to understand the general popularity of water changes when the data shows they are not as effective as other methods for "primary" nutrient export.

Another thing I didn't mention in my previous post is when you think about what occurs in nature, we don't have water changes, we have bacteria, macroalgae, and coral as primary nutrient export mechanisms. I ask myself if it is possible to easily replicate the natural process in our aquariums why not go for it?

The great thing about our hobby is there is more than one solution for every problem and people have the ability to pick the solution that works best for them.

 

[Jekyl]

Water changes, ATS, and chaeto are the best method for nitrate removal. As I understand phosphate isn't affected much by water changes, nitrate however is. I've done plenty of nopox dosing and it isn't an end all be all.

 

[kboogie]

I did forget to add something water changes are highly effective for and that is the removal of detritus from the substrate. While there are bacteria solutions that break down detritus and you could also use pods, water changes are effective for detritus removal.

 

[reacclimating 2 the hobby]

I'd argue your data points are just values you came up with for your own situation. There's no solid factual points. Just your opinion and mine. Which we are all welcome too.

I'd have a hard time finding a Sulfur Denitrification Reactor in the ocean. You compare the equipment costs, but time is really the most valuable asset anyone has.

Either way, good conversation. Appreciate and always respect what works for others may not work for someone else.

Happy Reefing!