Will nitrate at 0 cause birdsnest to die?

[crappie]

There is a growing body of scientific evidence for example from Wiedenmann and Shantz that nitrate alone at low concentrations of other nutrients is in fact very detrimental to reef corals.

I fully agree with @CHSUB that it is rather the low phosphate concentration.

Instead of nitrate I would rather dose phosphate and ammonium to save the coral.

My phos is steady at .03 and just tested yesterday. I thought that was at the upper recommended range. If not what do you suggest a good target is?

 

[Hans-Werner]

My phos is steady at .03 and just tested yesterday. I thought that was at the upper recommended range. If not what do you suggest a good target is?

I recommend 0.1 ppm phosphate as a good concentration. I think 0.05 to 0.3 ppm is acceptable.

0.03 ppm is already very low. If you add some error the test may have you very soon reach critically low concentrations. Tests calibrated for freshwater may show higher concentrations in saltwater, so you may actually be lower, for example.

Knowing the importance of phosphate for coral growth, biochemical functions and stability of the zooxanthellae symbiosis, the "old" recommended concentrations of 0.02 or 0.03 ppm are outdated in my eyes.

My speculation is that some factors are frequently overseen in the "natural phosphate concentrations". I am quite sure it are particulate phosphates of all kinds, fish poop, minerals, bacteria, detritus and plankton in different mixes and proportions.

 

[Lavey29]

My phos is steady at .03 and just tested yesterday. I thought that was at the upper recommended range. If not what do you suggest a good target is?

Doesn't really take scientist level knowledge to research and see that bottomed out nutrients in a reef tank lead to bad results much more often then not. Sometimes it takes multiple months before corals show the decline or dinos invade the system. A simple phone call to 2 or 3 of the big coral vendors on here and asking them what nutrients levels they keep in their highly successful frag tank coral farms will probably give you a good indicator of what levels work for the long haul.

 

[CHSUB]

Doesn't really take scientist level knowledge to research and see that bottomed out nutrients in a reef tank lead to bad results much more often then not. Sometimes it takes multiple months before corals show the decline or dinos invade the system. A simple phone call to 2 or 3 of the big coral vendors on here and asking them what nutrients levels they keep in their highly successful frag tank coral farms will probably give you a good indicator of what levels work for the long haul.

I purchased nearly all my corals from WWC in Orlando Fl and had a discussion with them about a Goni when I questioned its linage. It had been in my tank about 1 week and was lacking polyp extension. Since you're new to the hobby you would be unaware of goni’s history. When comparing my tanks parameters to theirs, no3 was 5ppm and mine was 0 on hobby kits, that the coral may be uncomfortable because of the change. Their recommendations was Reef Roids mixed with my current dosing of Red Sea AB+ and Reef Frenzy. They believed the particle size of Reef Roids was better than Reef Frenzy. They didn’t recommend no3 additions. Days after the coral is at full extension going on 2 months and it has grown over the base I put it on. I’m a believer in gonis now which is a big change from my past experiences!

 

[Lavey29]

I purchased nearly all my corals from WWC in Orlando Fl and had a discussion with them about a Goni when I questioned its linage. It had been in my tank about 1 week and was lacking polyp extension. Since you're new to the hobby you would be unaware of goni’s history. When comparing my tanks parameters to theirs, no3 was 5ppm and mine was 0 on hobby kits, that the coral may be uncomfortable because of the change. Their recommendations was Reef Roids mixed with my current dosing of Red Sea AB+ and Reef Frenzy. They believed the particle size of Reef Roids was better than Reef Frenzy. They didn’t recommend no3 additions. Days after the coral is at full extension going on 2 months and it has grown over the base I put it on. I’m a believer in gonis now which is a big change from my past experiences!

No offense but your current tank pictures show tiny corals and a few decent leathers. You got a long way to go there still. Give us an update at one year. Reef roids is garbage unless you need a quick phosphate spike. I've had tanks on and off over the past 50 years but this current reef tank I have is approaching 4 years and if you look at the multiple gonis in my tank you can get a good idea of what nice polyp extension looks like. I don't use crap like roids or Red Sea AB either. Just a lot of fish poop and ample nutrients levels.

 

[CHSUB]

This coral has doubled in size, first added to my tank. Encrusted over the plug and shoots every where. Your mindset is terrible, “your way is perfect and if different, will fail”. I would not say someone method would fail, because there are many ways to succeed, if you don’t understand that, you are a newbie regardless of your 50 year claim.

No offense but your current tank pictures show tiny corals and a few decent leathers. You got a long way to go there still. Give us an update at one year. Reef roids is garbage unless you need a quick phosphate spike. I've had tanks on and off over the past 50 years but this current reef tank I have is approaching 4 years and if you look at the multiple gonis in my tank you can get a good idea of what nice polyp extension looks like. I don't use crap like roids or Red Sea AB either. Just a lot of fish poop and ample nutrients levels.

 

[Solo McReefer]

Correct me if I'm wrong

This is GHA growing on the SPS, right?

 

[Lavey29]

This coral has doubled in size, first added to my tank. Encrusted over the plug and shoots every where. Your mindset is terrible, “your way is perfect and if different, will fail”. I would not say someone method would fail, because there are many ways to succeed, if you don’t understand that, you are a newbie regardless of your 50 year claim.

Great I hope your new 5 month old tank with 0 detectable nutrients is successful. I truly do. Give us an update at one year. I'll stick with well documented proven practices and see how mine does in the coming years but I really need a bigger tank because everything has outgrown the current 80g system.

 

[crappie]

Correct me if I'm wrong

This is GHA growing on the SPS, right?

Correct

 

[Formulator]

Imo, bottoming out nutrients have never existed in the hobby, it’s a new thing invented by marketing to sell unseasoned and inexperienced hobbyists. People follow the advice of the “guy” with dieing corals and hobby test kits that read 0, then add inorganic no3 and a few corals don’t die and he thinks he solved something.

I adamantly, but respectfully disagree, sir. 10-15 years ago I would have agreed with you, but science is not stagnant and we have learned better.

Here is just one of many papers on the subject: Effects of nitrate and phosphate availability on the tissues and carbonate skeleton of scleractinian corals

 

[Solo McReefer]

I adamantly, but respectfully disagree, sir. 10-15 years ago I would have agreed with you, but science is not stagnant and we have learned better.

Here is just one of many papers on the subject: Effects of nitrate and phosphate availability on the tissues and carbonate skeleton of scleractinian corals

Agree

True Zeovit Method required very low nutrients. One can see the results in the corals it produced. They look very different than what most reefers prefer

It was an extreme form of carbon dosing, then dosing specific nutrients back in just for the corals

I could easily get to undetectable Ns and Ps and no algae, if I wanted to. But I don't

If one ran a True Zeovit System, one would not have GHA growing and smothering one's SPS, they don't grow algae at all. It starved algae to death

By True, I just mean not modified in any way from the Zeovit algorithm

 

[Lavey29]

Agree

True Zeovit Method required very low nutrients. One can see the results in the corals it produced. They look very different than what most reefers prefer

It was an extreme form of carbon dosing, then dosing specific nutrients back in just for the corals

I could easily get to undetectable Ns and Ps and no algae, if I wanted to. But I don't

If one ran a True Zeovit System, one would not have GHA growing and smothering one's SPS, they don't grow algae at all. It starved algae to death

By True, I just mean not modified in any way from the Zeovit algorithm

Those are some nice acros

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Agree

True Zeovit Method required very low nutrients. One can see the results in the corals it produced. They look very different than what most reefers prefer

It was an extreme form of carbon dosing, then dosing specific nutrients back in just for the corals

I could easily get to undetectable Ns and Ps and no algae, if I wanted to. But I don't

If one ran a True Zeovit System, one would not have GHA growing and smothering one's SPS, they don't grow algae at all. It starved algae to death

By True, I just mean not modified in any way from the Zeovit algorithm

Nice cup coral! I've got the same one in my reef, one of my favorite coral

 

[SDchris]

I adamantly, but respectfully disagree, sir. 10-15 years ago I would have agreed with you, but science is not stagnant and we have learned better.

Here is just one of many papers on the subject: Effects of nitrate and phosphate availability on the tissues and carbonate skeleton of scleractinian corals

I think it depends on how you interpret the outcome. The corals in nutrient deplete studies don't seem to RTN/STN like the birdsnest in this thread. Also, I could search up many other threads that have reported similar birdsnest coral problems that have >10ppm nitrate.
While I'll stay away from the ideal nutrient level discussion, there certainly seems a difference in the way corals decline in scientific studies vs hobby, in regards to nutrient limitation.

 

[WingsTong]

由于硝酸盐含量为 0，我的鸟巢珊瑚都消失了——这个问题我只能通过添加 NeoNitrate 来解决——效果很好。现在鱼缸已经恢复正常范围——我不再需要添加太多剂量了。我注意到的一件事是，我的避难所里装满了chaeto，这是从鱼缸中吸收过多硝酸盐并使鱼缸失去平衡的罪魁祸首——即使喂食量很大。

？

 

[WingsTong]

I've lost birds nest corals to 0 Nitrate - it was an issue that i could only resolve by dosing NeoNitrate - worked well. Now that the tank is back into positive range - i don't have dose much any more. One thing that i noticed is that my refugium when full of chaeto was the main culprit of sucking too much nitrate from the tank and getting things out of balance - even with heavy feeding.

Can I see your refugium? I added some chaeto too, they grown very fast that quickly depletes the KH in my tank. I'd like to know what a reasonable range for maintaining it is.

 

[CHSUB]

I adamantly, but respectfully disagree, sir. 10-15 years ago I would have agreed with you, but science is not stagnant and we have learned better.

Here is just one of many papers on the subject: Effects of nitrate and phosphate availability on the tissues and carbonate skeleton of scleractinian corals

Maybe you’re misunderstanding my point to the OP? This study’s nutrient enrichment is 1.9 no3 ppm and .1 po4 ppm which are well within acceptable range. Furthermore, I alway apply the eye test over flawed hobby test kits. If corals are healthy, no intervention is necessary regardless of nutrient levels. Zero on Salifert no3 is not actually zero. All but one coral in OP’s tank look healthy, why panic?

 

[Dburr1014]

I've lost birds nest corals to 0 Nitrate - it was an issue that i could only resolve by dosing NeoNitrate - worked well. Now that the tank is back into positive range - i don't have dose much any more. One thing that i noticed is that my refugium when full of chaeto was the main culprit of sucking too much nitrate from the tank and getting things out of balance - even with heavy feeding.

Did you keep the refuge?

I am trying to switch things up. I have always kept a refuge on all my tanks in the past. Three weeks ago I threw away all the cheato and removed the container from the sump that held it. No change yet, still zero no3.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Correct me if I'm wrong

This is GHA growing on the SPS, right?

I think it's green cyanobacteria. The image in not very good but to me it looks slimy and the bluegreen color is typical für green cyanobacteria.

 

[Formulator]

Maybe you’re misunderstanding my point to the OP? This study’s nutrient enrichment is 1.9 no3 ppm and .1 po4 ppm which are well within acceptable range. Furthermore, I alway apply the eye test over flawed hobby test kits. If corals are healthy, no intervention is necessary regardless of nutrient levels. Zero on Salifert no3 is not actually zero. All but one coral in OP’s tank look healthy, why panic?

I can get on board with that, but for most folks the 10-20 ppm range is a good manageable target for NO3 with room for error on both sides and no ill effects. Corals also don’t need 450+ ppm calcium and 1400+ ppm magnesium, but many folks run them that high because having an excess provides a good margin of error and is more manageable/practical than living on the edge of sustainability.