Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate.

[SauceyReef]

Well somehow my phosphate went back up to 1.02 and my Nitrate is bottomed out which I’m really confused about. I haven’t added anything other than calcium nitrate.

 

[DanyL]

It makes perfect sense, and it's what you are supposed to expect.

As long as you have a supply of Nitrate going in, bacteria will multiply and consume it together with phosphate.
Once you run out, phosphate will start to rise.

When you're bottomed out, it may take a while to build it back up to be more or less balanced with your input.

 

[SauceyReef]

It makes perfect sense, and it's what you are supposed to expect.

As long as you have a supply of Nitrate going in, bacteria will multiply and consume it together with phosphate.
Once you run out, phosphate will start to rise.

When you're bottomed out, it may take a while to build it back up to be more or less balanced with your input.

But if I am adding just Calcium Nitrate, why is my Nitrate still at 0 but phosphates increasing? I thought from the responses here it would do the opposite. Seeing you are saying "as long as a Nitrate supply is going in, it will cause more bacteria" - I would think that would cause my phosphates to decrease seeing bacteria is consuming added Nitrate waste material.

 

[DanyL]

But if I am adding just Calcium Nitrate, why is my Nitrate still at 0 but phosphates increasing? I thought from the responses here it would do the opposite. Seeing you are saying "as long as a Nitrate supply is going in, it will cause more bacteria" - I would think that would cause my phosphates to decrease seeing bacteria is consuming added Nitrate waste material.

Bacteria grows from 3 components - Carbon, Phosphate and Nitrate.
When any of these 3 components does not exists, it limits the bacteria ability to multiply, and thus also limits the skimmers ability to export it as an organic matter.

Think of this as some kind of a balance between input and export of nutrients that you're trying to control.

There is a base of phosphates you start with, and on top of it you have X which is the amount that gets into the system every day, and Y which is the amount that gets exported every day.

Now let's say you're starting 1.0 ppm PO4, 10 ppm NO3, X = 0.3 (daily input PO4) and Y = 0.3 (daily export PO4).
In this state, the system would be perfectly balanced - PO4 shouldn't change.
However, after 2 days your NO3 was consumed and bottomed out, and now bacteria are limited by nitrate and cannot multiple, and thus does not consume any PO4, so now while X stays 0.3, Y is now 0, and by the end of the day PO4 will increase by 0,3 to 1.3, and on the next to 1.6, and so on.

Obviously, all these numbers and durations are made up, but you can apply the same to your current situation.

 

[DanyL]

Ugh, this was not supposed to be posted yet, I went for a moment and instinctively clicked "post".

So anyway - in the current situation you are basically limited by nitrate, and in turn X > Y.
What you want to achieve instead, is a constant supply of nitrate, or in other words - to make it available enough for the bacteria to multiply without loosing its population, so that at the same time the skimmer exports bacteria (and decrease NP), it'll also multiply to keep its population balanced, anything above that will be limited by your skimmers ability to export, but will also turn X == y (balanced) to X < Y (more export than import).

Last but not least is Carbon, which I did not mention yet.
Once NP start to increase this means you are either limited by your your export ability (skimmer), or (more likely) limited by Carbon, which similar to Nitrate can be dosed (this is basically what NoPox, vodka and viniger are used for).

 

[SauceyReef]

Ugh, this was not supposed to be posted yet, I went for a moment and instinctively clicked "post".

So anyway - in the current situation you are basically limited by nitrate, and in turn X > Y.
What you want to achieve instead, is a constant supply of nitrate, or in other words - to make it available enough for the bacteria to multiply without loosing its population, so that at the same time the skimmer exports bacteria (and decrease NP), it'll also multiply to keep its population balanced, anything above that will be limited by your skimmers ability to export, but will also turn X == y (balanced) to X < Y (more export than import).

Last but not least is Carbon, which I did not mention yet.
Once NP start to increase this means you are either limited by your your export ability (skimmer), or (more likely) limited by Carbon, which similar to Nitrate can be dosed (this is basically what NoPox, vodka and viniger are used for).

I get what you are saying entirely. But I am adding Calcium Nitrate! Shouldn't that be giving Bacteria the food to multiply, thus consume more Phosphates? If you haven't seen from my past replies I am running PHOSGUARD + adding Nitrate.

 

[SauceyReef]

Should I just keep adding more Calcium Nitrate every 12 hours until I see a reduction in Phosphate and Nitrate climbing up?

 

[DanyL]

I get what you are saying entirely. But I am adding Calcium Nitrate! Shouldn't that be giving Bacteria the food to multiply, thus consume more Phosphates? If you haven't seen from my past replies I am running PHOSGUARD + adding Nitrate.

It's all about the rate/amount of export to the rate/amount of input.
I would say your PhosGuard is starting to be exhausted which looks to you like your PO4 is rising, while at the same time the bacteria is fast in N consumption but slower in P reduction, and now when it stopped reproducing due to the lack of nitrates does not contribute at all.

Should I just keep adding more Calcium Nitrate every 12 hours until I see a reduction in Phosphate and Nitrate climbing up?

You can either dose twice a day, or once a day - the important thing is to keep it redly available for consumption.
But you'll do need to find the correct dosage by tweaking it up and down according to your test results, and for a few weeks keep it somewhat steady until it builds up and stabilizes. It's not a one dose per week kind of thing if that's what you're thinking, but a daily use (at least for now).

 

[Dburr1014]

You also have to remember:
Phosphate is in the rocks and nitrate is in the water colum.
Po4 reaches out from the rocks to be an equilibrium with the water. As your phosgaurd strips the water the rocks are trying to Leach to catch up. As the phosguard is filled to capacity the rocks will catch up with the water column because the phosguard stopped working.
Nitrate I consider easy in/easy out. Meaning it's easy to put in your system and easy to take out. Just keep testing no3 as you work on po4.
It takes a long time to get the phosphate down to a good level because it's bound to the rocks, but once it's there it generally will stay there as long as you watch your input.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Should I just keep adding more Calcium Nitrate every 12 hours until I see a reduction in Phosphate and Nitrate climbing up?

The amount of nitrate being added will only have a small amount of effect on phosphate uptake, and that may be hidden under other sources such as release from rock and sand.

keep adding the nitrate, and possible a higher dose unless alk gets too high, but you may need to look to other methods to reduce phosphate if you want it lower.

 

[SauceyReef]

It's all about the rate/amount of export to the rate/amount of input.
I would say your PhosGuard is starting to be exhausted which looks to you like your PO4 is rising, while at the same time the bacteria is fast in N consumption but slower in P reduction, and now when it stopped reproducing due to the lack of nitrates does not contribute at all.

You can either dose twice a day, or once a day - the important thing is to keep it redly available for consumption.
But you'll do need to find the correct dosage by tweaking it up and down according to your test results, and for a few weeks keep it somewhat steady until it builds up and stabilizes. It's not a one dose per week kind of thing if that's what you're thinking, but a daily use (at least for now).

Great reply - thank you. I will just keep dosing once or twice a day and trying to get that Nitrate level past 0. I will slowly increase until I see that. I will also try replacing the PHOSGUARD. It's been about a week or two.

@Dburr1014 & @Randy Holmes-Farley also very helpful replies - thank you for the information it helps clarify what is going on and what to do. @Randy Holmes-Farley I feel like the PHOSGUARD should be effective enough.

 

[SauceyReef]

I am getting the numbers down, but it is more difficult than I thought. The PHOSGUARD gets depleted very quickly. I have to be careful to keep dosing calcium nitrate, but not dose to much or else the nitrate will spike rather fast. It takes a lot of testing to be sure my nitrates are not bottoming out which also happens very fast. Even with fresh PHOSGUARD it will cause the phosphate to spike if the nitrate bottoms out.

My last reading was .8ppm phosphate, and 1.1ppm nitrate! I just replaced the PHOSGUARD again, so hopefully the next few days I can get that down to .5-.6 range. Slow and steady!!

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I am still a bit confused about ATI CNP, naturally, my nitrate is always very low around 0.25ppm but my phosphate always just gets higher and higher unless I use Rowa or some other type of phosphate remover.

Currently, my nutrients are nitrates 0.4 and phosphate 0.18, and this is with rowa in a reactor.

The calculator just tells me to dose 2.8 ml of the N part with no part C or P.

Surely if I was to just try and manage nutrient with ATI CNP my phosphate would just go through the roof in this case?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am still a bit confused about ATI CNP, naturally, my nitrate is always very low around 0.25ppm but my phosphate always just gets higher and higher unless I use Rowa or some other type of phosphate remover.

Currently, my nutrients are nitrates 0.4 and phosphate 0.18, and this is with rowa in a reactor.

The calculator just tells me to dose 2.8 ml of the N part with no part C or P.

Surely if I was to just try and manage nutrient with ATI CNP my phosphate would just go through the roof in this case?

I'm not sure what calculator you are talking about, or what its goals are, but I'd suggest boosting nitrate in your situation. In this case that is best done, IMO, by dosing sodium or calcium nitrate.

 

[SauceyReef]

I am still a bit confused about ATI CNP, naturally, my nitrate is always very low around 0.25ppm but my phosphate always just gets higher and higher unless I use Rowa or some other type of phosphate remover.

Currently, my nutrients are nitrates 0.4 and phosphate 0.18, and this is with rowa in a reactor.

The calculator just tells me to dose 2.8 ml of the N part with no part C or P.

Surely if I was to just try and manage nutrient with ATI CNP my phosphate would just go through the roof in this case?

I am also a bit confused exactly HOW it works, but one thing I learned from this thread that is a key lesson for more advanced nutrient control - Nitrate/Phosphate are inversely related. So, if your Nitrate starts going down and close to bottoming out, phosphates won't get picked up and will go up. My Nitrate is in a similar spot with my Phosphate at .7! So you aren't looking that bad. Worst case scenario you may have to use a phosphate remover and dose nitrate and up your MACRO algae lighting time.

 

[SauceyReef]

Todays readings:

Nitrate: 3.5 ppm
Phosphate: .73 ppm

Looks like it's time to add some fresh phosguard! Hoping to get the phosphate down to .5 by next week.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I'm not sure what calculator you are talking about, or what its goals are, but I'd suggest boosting nitrate in your situation. In this case that is best done, IMO, by dosing sodium or calcium nitrate.

This calculator https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=2177 The nutritions tab.

I have been boosting with Nyos® NITRATE+. But the goal is to switch totally to ATI Nutritions. The reason I ask is ATI Nitrate does not boost measurable nitrate and ATI say that measurable nitrate is not a good indicator of how much usable nitrogen is actually available to the corals and that is where their Nutrition N comes in.

According to ATI you don't need a fudge or Phosphate absorbers just use their three components and dose according to that calculator. So if your nutrients are high the C part will help reduce it etc. But it doesn't seem to cover a situation where your phosphates are mega high and nitrates mega low.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I am also a bit confused exactly HOW it works, but one thing I learned from this thread that is a key lesson for more advanced nutrient control - Nitrate/Phosphate are inversely related. So, if your Nitrate starts going down and close to bottoming out, phosphates won't get picked up and will go up. My Nitrate is in a similar spot with my Phosphate at .7! So you aren't looking that bad. Worst case scenario you may have to use a phosphate remover and dose nitrate and up your MACRO algae lighting time.

I don't have MACRO algae or a fudge just a roller filter and skimmer.

 

[Dburr1014]

This calculator https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=2177 The nutritions tab.

I have been boosting with Nyos® NITRATE+. But the goal is to switch totally to ATI Nutritions. The reason I ask is ATI Nitrate does not boost measurable nitrate and ATI say that measurable nitrate is not a good indicator of how much usable nitrogen is actually available to the corals and that is where their Nutrition N comes in.

According to ATI you don't need a fudge or Phosphate absorbers just use their three components and dose according to that calculator. So if your nutrients are high the C part will help reduce it etc. But it doesn't seem to cover a situation where your phosphates are mega high and nitrates mega low.

The easiest explanation I have heard yet about N and P was by Lou Ekus at a seminar this past weekend.
He explains that N is easily taken up by coral but mostly as ammonia and ammonium. P, on the other hand, is not. But, bacteria can take up P readily but not much N. But the saving grace is that coral can take up bacteria. This is how they get the P.
So they are correct that N is really not a great indicator of nutrient health and high P needs more bacteria to take it up.
IMO, 0.7 po4 really needs help to take it up in some form. Either fuge, bacteria, gfo, ect.
Your last po4 post said yours was 0.18. That's high but I think is manageable.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

The easiest explanation I have heard yet about N and P was by Lou Ekus at a seminar this past weekend.
He explains that N is easily taken up by coral but mostly as ammonia and ammonium. P, on the other hand, is not. But, bacteria can take up P readily but not much N. But the saving grace is that coral can take up bacteria. This is how they get the P.
So they are correct that N is really not a great indicator of nutrient health and high P needs more bacteria to take it up.
IMO, 0.7 po4 really needs help to take it up in some form. Either fuge, bacteria, gfo, ect.
Your last po4 post said yours was 0.18. That's high but I think is manageable.

Yes I get that, my po4 was around 0.6 before I used rowa to bring it down though.

The crux of my question is this: If I stop using rowa my phosphate will rocket back up, so how is just doing 2ml of the N part of ATI nutrition going to prevent that?

They say you don't need anything else to manage nutrients but according to their online calculator if po4 is above 0.6 and nitrate is lower than 1ppm all you need is the N part. What will stop my phosphates from just going really high again? as that is the trend in my tank.