Need acro help, browning out!
Hanna checker has an error range of +- .02 for phosphates. So not only are you measuring low (IMO) but you could be much closer to zero than you are measuring.
Acros are very good at consuming nitrate. They are not as efficient at consuming PO4 directly. Lou Ekus describes this in the video linked below. In short, corals uptake PO4 indirectly, by consuming bacteria. That bacteria's belly is full of PO4 that it consumes.
Now: Tropic Marin, Red Sea, Zeo, Triton are all trying to bottle that lovely process and sell it to you. Have they improved upon 160 million years of evolution? I dunno. I have no significant experience with any of it.
Personally, I prefer a system with a bunch of very old live rock. Heavy in/out with various frozen fish foods, clams, squid etc and lots of tang turds flying in the water column. PO4 around .1 and NO3 around 15 and ALK of 8-8.5
Acros are very good at consuming nitrate. They are not as efficient at consuming PO4 directly. Lou Ekus describes this in the video linked below. In short, corals uptake PO4 indirectly, by consuming bacteria. That bacteria's belly is full of PO4 that it consumes.
Now: Tropic Marin, Red Sea, Zeo, Triton are all trying to bottle that lovely process and sell it to you. Have they improved upon 160 million years of evolution? I dunno. I have no significant experience with any of it.
Personally, I prefer a system with a bunch of very old live rock. Heavy in/out with various frozen fish foods, clams, squid etc and lots of tang turds flying in the water column. PO4 around .1 and NO3 around 15 and ALK of 8-8.5
Thanks Scott B, incredibly helpful video. It definitely seems like I got myself into some trouble with ULN. It is strange though, Lou recommends a 1:5 - 1:10 ratio of Phos:Nitrate which makes sense when considering the bacteria biology. What's strange is why you so commonly hear people suggest 0.03 or less Phos, and 5-10ppm Na. It doesn't align with the ratio at all!
I've still been wondering what changed in my system. Why there was such a rapid shift in health, and I finally arrived at a theory. A while back I started running a refugium. The chaeto was so small that I knew if wasn't doing much, but it grew steadily. Then, a few months ago, it stalled out. I think the growth finally reached a point where it began robbing my corals and bacteria of Phosphate... and that's when things went haywire.
I've decided I'll take the following actions:
And that's it -- I've cut off all Aminos and Trace, and will probably resume usage in 3-6 months. I still appreciate any additional input! Thanks.
I've still been wondering what changed in my system. Why there was such a rapid shift in health, and I finally arrived at a theory. A while back I started running a refugium. The chaeto was so small that I knew if wasn't doing much, but it grew steadily. Then, a few months ago, it stalled out. I think the growth finally reached a point where it began robbing my corals and bacteria of Phosphate... and that's when things went haywire.
I've decided I'll take the following actions:
- Remove half or more of my Chaetomorpha, and reduce fuge light photoperiod by 1.5 hours.
- Decrease AWC volume by 25% for the short term.
- Increase feeding by 50%, and hopefully get another fish or two. Adding fish isn't something I like to rush.
And that's it -- I've cut off all Aminos and Trace, and will probably resume usage in 3-6 months. I still appreciate any additional input! Thanks.
Sounds like a good plan. Early in the biome life cycle -- say 12-18 months -- things are constantly changing I think. Natural competition between bacteria and organisms and nutrient. Some of that is made worse by changes we implement and some result in "better" conditions. I also get the sense that there is often a couple week lag in what we see in acros and the stress they are feeling. They don't always respond immediately. This makes it hard to really figure out sometimes what is happening/why they are stressing.
So don't beat yourself up. Just keep decent logs and steady parameters.
As to ratios of N
, I don't sweat that too much. When they get too far out of whack I will tend to see some cyano popping up -- generally because P has increased too much and it is time to switch out the GFO.
I used to run really clean for years and did OK. Gradually switched over to heavy in/out with higher levels and my sticks tend to prefer that.
Hang in there!
So don't beat yourself up. Just keep decent logs and steady parameters.
As to ratios of N
, I don't sweat that too much. When they get too far out of whack I will tend to see some cyano popping up -- generally because P has increased too much and it is time to switch out the GFO. I used to run really clean for years and did OK. Gradually switched over to heavy in/out with higher levels and my sticks tend to prefer that.
Hang in there!
jsbzcmcdaniel
Active Member
Just a thought......Have you checked for stray voltage with a multimeter? I had this happen and couldn't figure out what it was until someone here suggested it.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
I had the same thing happen - bought some really nice acro frags, they did really well for a few months growing and encrusting and then they browned, stopped growing, got thin skin, and I've lost a couple (man that ticks me off! I know how you feel.). The fact that they were growing for a period proves that your water and lights are perfectly adequate.
Here's what I'm currently doing with my tank and having some success so far. Definitely have observed color returning and polyps are starting to come back out after only a couple weeks...
I'd suggest your corals are in need of nutrition, I think that they're not getting nutrition in your tank. When new they grew while they used their reserves and then they ran out of steam. Try using a nutrition product such as Red Sea Reef Energy AB+ (or the old A and B) or EasySPS from Coral-Vue, or start nightly broadcast feeding Reef Roids (your phosphate will spike, FYI). Acropora need to be fed! Yes there's a big argument about whether they eat it or absorb it - I personally think it's simply absorbed.
These nutrition products contain carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids, flocked amino acids, and vitamins. I've seen too many wonderful tanks that do zero trace element dosing - I'm just not convinced it's that important. However, I know amazing acropora tanks that feed heavily - and they feed coral food heavily not fish food.
Here's what I'm currently doing with my tank and having some success so far. Definitely have observed color returning and polyps are starting to come back out after only a couple weeks...
I'd suggest your corals are in need of nutrition, I think that they're not getting nutrition in your tank. When new they grew while they used their reserves and then they ran out of steam. Try using a nutrition product such as Red Sea Reef Energy AB+ (or the old A and B) or EasySPS from Coral-Vue, or start nightly broadcast feeding Reef Roids (your phosphate will spike, FYI). Acropora need to be fed! Yes there's a big argument about whether they eat it or absorb it - I personally think it's simply absorbed.
These nutrition products contain carbohydrates, lipids, amino acids, flocked amino acids, and vitamins. I've seen too many wonderful tanks that do zero trace element dosing - I'm just not convinced it's that important. However, I know amazing acropora tanks that feed heavily - and they feed coral food heavily not fish food.
Have you noticed that using Reef Energy+ is a better way to get the corals their nutrition without spiking Phos too high? For my above resolution plan (50% greater daily feeding) most of that additional food is coming from lots of BRS Reef Chili coral food. I know it'll dirty up the water, that's to a small extent my goal... but if I can get the corals the nutes they need while keeping Phos under control I'd be even happier.
TexasReefer82
Active Member
I have been testing and have not noticed it to spike my phosphate but I have only been using it for 5 days.
When I started feeding my acros a couple weeks ago (starting phosphate 0.05 on Hanna and i was dosing phosphate daily) I did nightly additions of Reef Roids for a week after which it rose to 0.383.
Yikes! I eased back on the Roids and for the next week did nightly additions of Polyp Booster along with Oyster Feast and Phyto Feast. during that week they continued to rise but only up to 0.454, so the increase slowed down.
I then started AB+ 5 days ago along with Polyp Booster, Oyster & Phyto feast with weekly Roids and over these five days it fell down to 0.411 (measured today).
So I think that's really interesting - I'm feeding more food than ever and the phosphates fell. I'm wondering if AB+ is responsible by means of providing the missing ingredients that corals needed in order to utilize the excess phosphate. This is the exact claim that the EasySPS product makes - they warn to watch your phosphates, nitrates, and alk to prevent them from bottoming out due to increased utilization. My order of Easy SPS is arriving any day now and I'll start dosing that as well. I'll continue to measure phosphate going forward.
Roids IMO is best used to target feed LPS corals as a "paste" instead of broadcasting into the water column - although I'm still broadcasting at night once or twice a week.
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