Myth or Fact? High ALK and ULN can cause SPS burnt tip?

[pelagic]

I know we have a lot of expert reefers here, hopefully someone can answer me this question.

I always wonder about why people said higher ALK(normally 8+ is what I hear) and ULN can cause SPS burnt tip?, if it's true, why? if not why people see burnt tip in the ULN environment when they have 8+ ALK?

Thank you,

 

[pickupman66]

from my experience... YES> alk above 9 dKh can cause burnt tips in a ULNS system. it is a sign of starvation due to accelerated growth and not enough nutrition (poop) in the water. Randy Holmes Farley could probably better explain this.

 

[bknapp]

I think it's more of a long term issue then a short term. Meaning, if your alkalinity is higher than 8 for an extended period of time you'll have issues. I've had my alkalinity over 9 (has been recently) for a short time frame, like a week or two, and I saw no signs of stress or issues from my SPS.

 

[kacrocorals581]

I say fact I run a ulns and my alk used to stay high and burnt tips did occur I keep it a steady 7 now and haven't seen a problem since but gotta remember every aquarium is different and just cause it happens in mine dose not mean it well happen in the next so well have to go by a consensus of the group

 

[pelagic]

Ok, check this out

1.Coral Pro Salt is ideal for sustainable, accelerated coral growth.
Red Sea Coral Pro Salt has 12.5Dkh, and they are a big company. if the ALK and ULN cause burnt tip.. then I don't know why they make the "Pro" salt this way.

2.Can Potassium (K) be a factor? cause a lot ULN systems sometimes have higher than usual Potassium, cause people tweak the color by adding the elements

3.The old ULN systems kept ALK at 15DKH, for the growth, they were doing ok..

4. Maybe it's actually caused by 0 NO3 and 0 PO4, and the coral starved to death?

I just can't find a good explanation why high ALK can cause problem in the ULN system..

 

[pelagic]

from my experience... YES> alk above 9 dKh can cause burnt tips in a ULNS system. it is a sign of starvation due to accelerated growth and not enough nutrition (poop) in the water. Randy Holmes Farley could probably better explain this.

Is it because there enough calcium in the water for the bone growth but not enough nutrition for the tissue?

 

[schooleyosis]

I run bio-pellets and my ALK has consistently been above 9.5 and I don't see burnt tips. My ALK has been at 10.5 for the past several weeks and all seems to be ok. Yes, it's a little high and I plan to get it back down around 9, but for now 10.5 and things seem ok.

 

[pelagic]

I run bio-pellets and my ALK has consistently been above 9.5 and I don't see burnt tips. My ALK has been at 10.5 for the past several weeks and all seems to be ok. Yes, it's a little high and I plan to get it back down around 9, but for now 10.5 and things seem ok.

Do you also have undetectable nitrate and phosphate?

 

[schooleyosis]

Do you also have undetectable nitrate and phosphate?

Forgot about that part, lol. I don't test nitrate but my phosphate was 0.2 last time I checked it.

 

[Keithcorals]

Forgot about that part, lol. I don't test nitrate but my phosphate was 0.2 last time I checked it.

.2 is high so not ulns.

I say it's true when my phosphte was at 0.003 and nitrate was undetectable I would get burnt tips if my alk went to 9. This withen a few days of the alk going up. There could be other factors playing a part but there certainly seems to be a correlation with high alk and ulns. I think a lot of the people with high alk that don't seem to have a problem don't actually have low nutrients.

 

[pickupman66]

Is it because there enough calcium in the water for the bone growth but not enough nutrition for the tissue?

this would be my best semi-educated guess.

 

[Mark SF]

Ok, check this out

1.Coral Pro Salt is ideal for sustainable, accelerated coral growth.
Red Sea Coral Pro Salt has 12.5Dkh, and they are a big company. if the ALK and ULN cause burnt tip.. then I don't know why they make the "Pro" salt this way.

2.Can Potassium (K) be a factor? cause a lot ULN systems sometimes have higher than usual Potassium, cause people tweak the color by adding the elements

3.The old ULN systems kept ALK at 15DKH, for the growth, they were doing ok..

4. Maybe it's actually caused by 0 NO3 and 0 PO4, and the coral starved to death?

I just can't find a good explanation why high ALK can cause problem in the ULN system..

1.) Big companies target the masses, and not the niche or advanced hobbyist. This is why companies like Royal Exclusiv and Korallen Zucht are in business. Most advanced reefers would never touch RS Coral Pro, however, many ULNS do use their Blue Bucket salt.

2.) From my experience, it is the opposite test results, and ULNS systems are usually low on Potassium when colors begin to fade with SPS. There is some pseudo science from KZ promoting their Beckett skimmers over pin wheel because they believe the pinwheel skimmer removes essential elements such as Potassium.

3.) I would love to see what these tanks looked like. Do you have any examples or links?

4.) My experience went something like this: I had over 80 SPS frags when running ZeoVit and the colors were always on the light side, my nutrients read 0 across the board from day 1. I knew this was the main problem, but I was also trying to dial in LED lighting. I had a magnet rust in my tank and it really stressed out the Acros, they stopped up taking ALK and CAL, and I was on vacation when this happened. The dosing pump kept pumping because it doesn't know any better and when I got home, all the tips of my acros were burnt with slime, not a good sight...My ALK was a consistent 7.0 DkH, but when I tested when I got back from a week vacation, it was 9.5 Dkh. I lost almost all of those SPS. So, too low nutrient, stressed the corals, and the rust added to the stress, plus the consistent dosing of ALK = burnt tips in my experience.

-Mark

 

[schooleyosis]

.2 is high so not ulns.

My bad, I quickly read the first post and saw ULNS which I thought was referring to the bio-pellets. I completely agree my water is dirty and the corals love it. :noidea:

 

[tcoyle]

So would the High Alk issues be for any system that is close to 0 in phosphate and nitrates or one only using bio pellets?

 

[PaulKreider]

1.) Big companies target the masses, and not the niche or advanced hobbyist. This is why companies like Royal Exclusiv and Korallen Zucht are in business. Most advanced reefers would never touch RS Coral Pro, however, many ULNS do use their Blue Bucket salt.

Most public aquariums and research facilities use Instant Ocean, not sure what makes other salt better... If they trust million dollar whales in it then my reef should be fine.

 

[pelagic]

1.) Big companies target the masses, and not the niche or advanced hobbyist. This is why companies like Royal Exclusiv and Korallen Zucht are in business. Most advanced reefers would never touch RS Coral Pro, however, many ULNS do use their Blue Bucket salt.

2.) From my experience, it is the opposite test results, and ULNS systems are usually low on Potassium when colors begin to fade with SPS. There is some pseudo science from KZ promoting their Beckett skimmers over pin wheel because they believe the pinwheel skimmer removes essential elements such as Potassium.

3.) I would love to see what these tanks looked like. Do you have any examples or links?

4.) My experience went something like this: I had over 80 SPS frags when running ZeoVit and the colors were always on the light side, my nutrients read 0 across the board from day 1. I knew this was the main problem, but I was also trying to dial in LED lighting. I had a magnet rust in my tank and it really stressed out the Acros, they stopped up taking ALK and CAL, and I was on vacation when this happened. The dosing pump kept pumping because it doesn't know any better and when I got home, all the tips of my acros were burnt with slime, not a good sight...My ALK was a consistent 7.0 DkH, but when I tested when I got back from a week vacation, it was 9.5 Dkh. I lost almost all of those SPS. So, too low nutrient, stressed the corals, and the rust added to the stress, plus the consistent dosing of ALK = burnt tips in my experience.
-Mark

Mark,
For 3, I haven’t seen it before, that’s way before my time. I just heard about it from other reefers. Maybe the test kits were not good enough, so it’s not really ULS.
For 4, that can’t explain why you lost your SPS, the strong magnet contains a lot of heavy metal; the alk swing is just adding another problem on top of the heavy metal toxic issue to your SPS.

So would the High Alk issues be for any system that is close to 0 in phosphate and nitrates or one only using bio pellets?

Bio pellets causes bacteria to consume the nitrate and phosphate in the tank, plus, it lowers the PH because the bacteria requires oxygen. If the high ALK and ULN burnt tip is fact, then biopellet users are facing higher risk cause of higher PH swing imo.

Most public aquariums and research facilities use Instant Ocean, not sure what makes other salt better... If they trust million dollar whales in it then my reef should be fine.

True, if I had a Fish Only Tank like most of the tanks in the aquariums, I wouldn’t care about the ALK, Calcium, Magnesium, amino acid, or any of the trace elements. I would also use instant ocean salt keep my fish. Reef tank with instant ocean salt might require extra attentions when someone is trying to have coral growth and the coloration.
---------
I am still not sure if I am convinced either way, I think I need to experiment on that.

 

[.AcroKiller.]

The aquarium restaurants use redsea on their tanks . I have had alkalinity in the 9s without issue with pellets but I always strive to maintain my alk as close to 8 as posible due to people saying that. Is a good myth to follow since alk is closer to NSW at 8

 

[pelagic]

After doing some research in the past few weeks, I came out with the conclusion below.

ULNS causes the SPS become sickly pretty, like those super models. The higher ALK will cause the bone grows faster, that makes the SPS tip becomes more vulnerable.
However, ULNS and high ALK are not the cause of the burnt tip, light and flow might be the reasons.

Flow:
When the water nutrient is low, strong flow is needed to push the nutrient to the SPS. Weak flow will cause the SPS starve to dead, and it starts at the weakest part, which is the tip.

Light:
The weak tip can’t take as much light as the normal SPS, the unhealthy SPS tip literally gets burned to dead if it’s too weak.

Solutions:

1. Lower the ALK, and/or
2. Feeding more and frequently, this will ensure the SPS is getting enough nutrient, and/or
3. Tune down the light intensity, find the balance between SPS getting brown and burnt tip, and/or
4. Make sure there’s enough flow in the tank, and/or
5. Constantly does small amount of nitrate(1ppm), and phosphate(0.03PPM) for constant food source for the SPS

 

[cee]

After doing some research in the past few weeks, I came out with the conclusion below.

ULNS causes the SPS become sickly pretty, like those super models. The higher ALK will cause the bone grows faster, that makes the SPS tip becomes more vulnerable.
However, ULNS and high ALK are not the cause of the burnt tip, light and flow might be the reasons.

Flow:
When the water nutrient is low, strong flow is needed to push the nutrient to the SPS. Weak flow will cause the SPS starve to dead, and it starts at the weakest part, which is the tip.

Light:
The weak tip can’t take as much light as the normal SPS, the unhealthy SPS tip literally gets burned to dead if it’s too weak.

Solutions:

1. Lower the ALK, and/or
2. Feeding more and frequently, this will ensure the SPS is getting enough nutrient, and/or
3. Tune down the light intensity, find the balance between SPS getting brown and burnt tip, and/or
4. Make sure there’s enough flow in the tank, and/or
5. Constantly does small amount of nitrate(1ppm), and phosphate(0.03PPM) for constant food source for the SPS

I agree with your first sentence regarding 0 PO4 and NO3 and have seen it on at least two occasions in my own tanks. I think even if an acro came from a high light environment that a ULNS could still result in STN. Potassium deficiency could be an issue in more mature tanks but I don't see a skimmer removing K. I suspect it has more to do with bacteria uptake or some other chemical imbalance I cannot pretend to understand but do believe potassium and strontium balance are underrated in terms of their criticality to long-term SPS maintenance.

 

[pelagic]

I agree with your first sentence regarding 0 PO4 and NO3 and have seen it on at least two occasions in my own tanks. I think even if an acro came from a high light environment that a ULNS could still result in STN. Potassium deficiency could be an issue in more mature tanks but I don't see a skimmer removing K. I suspect it has more to do with bacteria uptake or some other chemical imbalance I cannot pretend to understand but do believe potassium and strontium balance are underrated in terms of their criticality to long-term SPS maintenance.

Nice reply Cee! glad to see you are interested in the topic.

That is very interesting about the potassium, I've also read about other causes of burnt tip

• Overdoes of potassium
• Active Carbon over-used

However, I personally think potassium and strontium are less likely the causes of burnt tip in a high ALK ULNS.
Do you test/dose potassium/strontium to prevent the imbalance issue? or do you think water change is enough?