Mysterious deaths

[nezw0001]

So I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding some fish deaths I had and posted some pictures of my blue tang’s necropsy.

unfortunately since then the deaths have continued. In total I have loss
One percula clown
One skunk clown
One blue tang
Two yellow tangs
Two coral beautys
One conspic
One moorish idol
Three pyramid butterflies
One harlequin tusk
One leopard wrasse
Three blotchy anthias
Several corals RTNd

I’ve done three cops with nothing out of whack

there have been no additions to the tank ie fish, inverts or corals for the prior 8 months.
The only culprit I can identify may be my sulfur denitrator stopped working and was turned off for months then accidentally got turned back on prior to the deaths starting.

I have instituted massive water changes, added carbon and GFI, added poly filter, turned off all dosing including LC.

none of the fish display any physical lesions except for elevated respiration rates.

anyone have any suggestions? I think if I loose the rest of my fish I might be done for a while with reefs. This has been a very emotional event to suffer these losses with no identifying cause

thanks in advance

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding some fish deaths I had and posted some pictures of my blue tang’s necropsy.

unfortunately since then the deaths have continued. In total I have loss
One percula clown
One skunk clown
One blue tang
Two yellow tangs
Two coral beautys
One conspic
One moorish idol
Three pyramid butterflies
One harlequin tusk
One leopard wrasse
Three blotchy anthias
Several corals RTNd

I’ve done three cops with nothing out of whack

there have been no additions to the tank ie fish, inverts or corals for the prior 8 months.
The only culprit I can identify may be my sulfur denitrator stopped working and was turned off for months then accidentally got turned back on prior to the deaths starting.

I have instituted massive water changes, added carbon and GFI, added poly filter, turned off all dosing including LC.

none of the fish display any physical lesions except for elevated respiration rates.

anyone have any suggestions? I think if I loose the rest of my fish I might be done for a while with reefs. This has been a very emotional event to suffer these losses with no identifying cause

thanks in advance

Sorry for what I see is a Massive loss. This most certainly points to water and the suspects I see here are Denitrator and/or GFO combo as GFO can be strong .
One thing to do is obtain sample from denitrator and test it and see what toxins may be contained from the unit and also get an ICP test done. three weeks ago I sent a tube of water to /watertest.icp-analysis.com and had results on the 4th day.
Also test water you mix with and see if there is presence of ammonia, nitrate and phosphates in that mixed water BEFORE it goes to the tank.
Check your test kits for expiration dates and what kits are you using ?

Other in addition to water would be flukes or velvet with flukes , the highest possibility especially if fish were hiding, breathing heavy and loss of appetite.

 

[nezw0001]

So as soon as I realized the denitrator was turned back on I turned it off and dumped it out and cleaned it out. I panicked a did not think to take a water sample from its output.

I have submitted two ICps since this started and another went out with todays mail. I’d post results but I’m away from my computer. I also sent RO water with each ICP test and none of the tests showed anything out of the ordinary.

I test Nitrates and phosphate every other day with Hanna colorimeters. As I test a lot I roll through reagent quickly. Nitrate has always been about 30 and phosphate about 0.12 I have been doing with LC for years to keep phosphate down but pulled that off line when I added the GFO.

could flukes and velvet hide undetected for almost a year?

additions prior to that time have been sourced exclusively from retailers with a quarantine program plus received 30-60 days of copper power at my place plus and additional 60 day observation period.

 

[MnFish1]

Can you give the rest of your parameters?
Were the fish quarantined?
How are any non-acropora invertebrates doing?
Did all the fish die at once, or was it literally over 2 weeks?

IF a toxin released into the water was the cause, I would think it result in very quick deaths - i.e. days, compared to 2 weeks. You have some coral damage - which suggests a water issue - but were ALL inverts infected, which fish are left - and what is their behavior?

Timing wise - when were the deaths in relation to removing the denigrator?

 

[nezw0001]

I’m away from my lab top so I can’t share the ICP right now but

generally
Salinity 1.026
Alk 8
CA 400
Mg 1300
Nitrates 20-30
Phosphate 0.12 ish
I haven’t tested for ammonia for years. But I have 500+ LBs of live rock and tank has been set up for 10+ years
Fish deaths have been spaced out over weeks but started when denitrator went back on line after being off for months

no fish or anything added for 8+ months. The interuptus added approx 8 months ago went through 30 days of copper power followed by 30 observation period.

other inverts- so far shrimp seem fine as do the conchs and euphillia and gonipora

 

[nezw0001]

Fish behaviors seem pretty normal. They seem to hide more than normal but otherwise eating fine, no flashing/scratching, etc

 

[nezw0001]

 

[nezw0001]

I figured out how to post the ICP remotely

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding some fish deaths I had and posted some pictures of my blue tang’s necropsy.

unfortunately since then the deaths have continued. In total I have loss
One percula clown
One skunk clown
One blue tang
Two yellow tangs
Two coral beautys
One conspic
One moorish idol
Three pyramid butterflies
One harlequin tusk
One leopard wrasse
Three blotchy anthias
Several corals RTNd

I’ve done three cops with nothing out of whack

there have been no additions to the tank ie fish, inverts or corals for the prior 8 months.
The only culprit I can identify may be my sulfur denitrator stopped working and was turned off for months then accidentally got turned back on prior to the deaths starting.

I have instituted massive water changes, added carbon and GFI, added poly filter, turned off all dosing including LC.

none of the fish display any physical lesions except for elevated respiration rates.

anyone have any suggestions? I think if I loose the rest of my fish I might be done for a while with reefs. This has been a very emotional event to suffer these losses with no identifying cause

thanks in advance

Sorry to hear, those are huge losses.

What fish remain, any?

I went back an reread the other post - I first leaned towards gill disease, but then changed over to fatty liver disease upon seeing the necropsy photo with all that internal fat. Based on these subsequent fish losses, I’d go right back to my original thought of a gill disease - less likely to be flukes given the timeline, so more likely Amyloodinium (velvet) or rarely, bacterial.
Just checking - you lost some corals to RTN, but are the other corals and inverts doing well? If so, that tends to aim more towards a fish gill disease than an environmental/water issue.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Some of your ICP tests are off (aluminum for example - and others). After looking at a lot of threads on Denitrators, depending on the type used - they are unlikely to cause a problem. I would think, though, that the possibility of leaking of hydrogen sulfide would be a possibility after that long a time - especially if the deaths occurred directly thereafter. Additionally - it's possible that the gills, etc could have been damaged by some chemical from the Denitrators that affected only some of the fish. I agree with Jay, though, that a gill disease is possible. Also curious - was there any time when a fish (dead) was left in the tank for a period of time - which might have caused an ammonia spike. Though I agree that with that much rock, it's unlikely.

EDIT - the fact that your soft corals are doing well, as well as shrimp, etc - suggest more of an illness

 

[Dom]

I’m away from my lab top so I can’t share the ICP right now but

generally
Salinity 1.026
Alk 8
CA 400
Mg 1300
Nitrates 20-30
Phosphate 0.12 ish
I haven’t tested for ammonia for years. But I have 500+ LBs of live rock and tank has been set up for 10+ years
Fish deaths have been spaced out over weeks but started when denitrator went back on line after being off for months

no fish or anything added for 8+ months. The interuptus added approx 8 months ago went through 30 days of copper power followed by 30 observation period.

other inverts- so far shrimp seem fine as do the conchs and euphillia and gonipora

There is nothing wrong with these test numbers.

 

[Shibaken3]

do you have a deep sand bed? Could be hydrogen sulfide build up in the sand that got released?

 

[C4ctus99]

Is chloride bad? His ICP shows +350mg/l… not certain what the norm is

 

[nezw0001]

I was wondering about hydrogen sulfide but not from a DSB but from the denitrator.

can fill flukes lie dormant that long? All fish who died are in excellent body condition. Lyretail anthias, ignatius anthias, bimac anthias, gem tang, purple tang, one skunk clown, a coral beauty, a copperband. In the aggressive tank a triggerfish, a puffer fish, a golden butterfly, a scribbled angel, a queen an emperor, interuptus, orange shoulder tang, doliatis rabbbitfish I think that’s it.

how can flukes remain dormant for this long? I did a freshwater dip on the mortality and didn’t see any flukes fall off. I no expert in IDing flukes.

inverts and the rest of the coral seem ok for now but I’ve changed about 600 gallons of water.

 

[MnFish1]

I was wondering about hydrogen sulfide but not from a DSB but from the denitrator.

can fill flukes lie dormant that long? All fish who died are in excellent body condition. Lyretail anthias, ignatius anthias, bimac anthias, gem tang, purple tang, one skunk clown, a coral beauty, a copperband. In the aggressive tank a triggerfish, a puffer fish, a golden butterfly, a scribbled angel, a queen an emperor, interuptus, orange shoulder tang, doliatis rabbbitfish I think that’s it.

how can flukes remain dormant for this long? I did a freshwater dip on the mortality and didn’t see any flukes fall off. I no expert in IDing flukes.

inverts and the rest of the coral seem ok for now but I’ve changed about 600 gallons of water.

Its was (perhaps most likely) Hydrogen sulfide from the Denitrator - my opinion (aside - does anyone know of a setting that allows words like denitrator to be added to a white-list of sorts - otherwise its repeatedly denigrator). In any case - Flukes can be in a tank - not causing illness - but still there.. Look at @PaulB who actively tries to add parasites to his tank. Velvet can be in a tank - and not cause illness until stress.

What is the aggressive tank. I apologize - It is hard to make an exact opinion but I'm going to try to interpret what you said: All fish who died were in excellent condition. My question - so - one day they were fine - eating, not breathing fast - and then just were found dead (i.e. what was the exact progression).

I think the question was - which fish survived - I'm not sure if you answered that with the fish in the aggressive tank ?

I'm not sure there is a 'for sure' date on flukes - @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Its was (perhaps most likely) Hydrogen sulfide from the Denitrator - my opinion (aside - does anyone know of a setting that allows words like denitrator to be added to a white-list of sorts - otherwise its repeatedly denigrator). In any case - Flukes can be in a tank - not causing illness - but still there.. Look at @PaulB who actively tries to add parasites to his tank. Velvet can be in a tank - and not cause illness until stress.

What is the aggressive tank. I apologize - It is hard to make an exact opinion but I'm going to try to interpret what you said: All fish who died were in excellent condition. My question - so - one day they were fine - eating, not breathing fast - and then just were found dead (i.e. what was the exact progression).

I think the question was - which fish survived - I'm not sure if you answered that with the fish in the aggressive tank ?

I'm not sure there is a 'for sure' date on flukes - @Jay Hemdal

Flukes can show up any time, rarely even after years. The fish reach an equilibrium with the flukes and are asymptomatic for some time until there is a stress event that favors the flukes and their numbers take off. Most commonly though, no equilibrium is reached and the fish become symptomatic within 3 months or so of infection.
Jay

 

[nezw0001]

My system has two connected tanks, a 450gallon reef and a 750gallon aggressive tank. They are connected so same water.

The fish that are found dead often times were totally normal the day before. Eating, etc. a few of the fish show very mild uncoordinated swimming. The mist severely affected ie the blue tang and yellow tangs became lethargic prior to death, hiding and not feeding for a couple of days prior.

if I dip dead fish should I see flukes? Is there a way to definitively diagnose velvet? Can I send samples or fish somewhere? There are no skin lesions.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My system has two connected tanks, a 450gallon reef and a 750gallon aggressive tank. They are connected so same water.

The fish that are found dead often times were totally normal the day before. Eating, etc. a few of the fish show very mild uncoordinated swimming. The mist severely affected ie the blue tang and yellow tangs became lethargic prior to death, hiding and not feeding for a couple of days prior.

if I dip dead fish should I see flukes? Is there a way to definitively diagnose velvet? Can I send samples or fish somewhere? There are no skin lesions.

Only one species of fluke shows up in dips unless you use a microscope (Neobenedenia).
Microscopes can also be used to diagnose velvet, you can see the parasites in the gill tissue. Otherwise, rapid breathing and not eating are the primary symptoms.
I just think if it was a fatally bad water quality event, the fish would die more close together time wise .
Jay

 

[nezw0001]

Thank you for all your help. Thus was an incredibly soul crushing event. A couple of the fish that died were 12+ years old and have been with me longer than my children

 

[nezw0001]

Well I found the problem...

For a recap I have a 1500 gallon + system made up of two large tanks. A 450G mixed reef upstairs and a 750G FOWLR in the basement. The sump, quarantine and frag tanks are also in the sump room. The 750 has one plank feeding pellets and the plank sits right on the tank, no problems there. The 450G is feed by the plank dosing into the sump right in front of the return intake. This necessitates a long piece of PVC on the plank, approximately 10".

one day while cleaning I noticed that there was food coming out of the top of the plank PVC. I took it apart and discovered the entire tube was full of ROTTING, nasty food. It was black and stinky. I cleaned it out and did about 2000G of water changes over the next couple of days. The pump at the bottom was operational. I could find no explanation what went wrong.

I thought it would be a good idea to reinstall without the pump as the PVC dumps into the sump and there is a good amount of suction pulling the food into the return. Everything was fine for a while but I had to leave on a business trip for 10 days. I get back and there are several more dead fish and once again the full PVC is full of rotting food, even though it was dumping into an empty PVC tube. So for now the plank is removed from the tank, as I really have no fish to feed any more. I just thought you guys should be aware that this can occur.