Montipora Eating Nudibranchs

[wpeterson]

I just checked my tank after lights out and found Montipora eating nudibranchs all over a 4" monti cap in my tank. I also saw one on the glass (tiny White Sea slug, maybe 2.5mm long). I'm confident in this identification.

My favorite SPS was a neon green Montipora Confusa and it began bleaching and died over the last week. I believe they ate all the tissue and moved on to the monti cap.

Clearly this is a failure in my dipping/QTing but that cat is out of the bag.

Is there anything I can do to get rid of them? Wrasses are probably out since we have two small anemone shrimp and a Mandarin.

Should I dip/isolate my remaining Montipora and try to starve them out? How long would I need to go fallow. This really sucks - I do not have time for a big intervention these days :-(

I have Flatworm Exit and may try dosing this soon. Has anyone had luck dosing in tank to kill these with Flatworm exit? I've had luck using this product safely to kill off flatworms.

 

[taintstick]

Following, I had a similar issue, I guess I didn't dip correctly. But they all started to attack my montis and digis. I pulled all of them out, dipped again, rinsed very good and have not had an issue since. In fact some came back even healthier after a few weeks.
I'd be afraid to dose the tank just cause of toxins released after their death. Curious to hear others experiences.

 

[wpeterson]

#reefsquad

 

[Highgrade]

Took me over 6 months to get rid of mine. They're like the cockroaches of the ocean. Nothing seems to kill them but persistence. I had to QT all monti's and dip/scrub every 3 days. I dosed KZ flatworm stop in the QT and display tank for the 6+ months and continue to dose the display tank with the KZ flatworm stop in case there are any lingering. I check nightly for them. Since they seem to come out more when their predators (wrasses) are sleeping. There have been reports of MENs living in rock/substrate for a very long time even with no monti's present. It's a constant battle to attempt to exterminate every single MEN and their eggs. Some reefers have given up monti's for over a year or more because it is such a pain. Best of luck.

 

[JaimeAdams]

Personally I think nudibranchs are the worst. I think it was Melev who basically said that if you don't do anything your coral are already dead.
Getting Montipora Eating Nudibranchs is not a failure of your coral dipping. It is a failure to properly Quarantine. Dips(some) will kill the adults but none will get the eggs. You need to scrape or brush away the eggs. They usually lay the eggs on the underside of the monti or just below the live tissue. They are very difficult to get rid of. I highly suggest wrasses as a biological control, but your shrimp will more than likely be lunch.
I have heard about people dosing flat worm exit, but I have not done that myself. You will also read about people dipping in potassium permanganate which supposedly dissolves the eggs as well, but can be very hard on the coral. the eggs take around a week to hatch, but if you are seeing the nudis then you surely have more than one or two so the eggs are being laid daily which means you have new ones hatching every day. I would remove all montis and anacroporas (in applicable) from my system and put them in a QT tank for 4-6 months, the longer the better. I would them dip every couple of days. I prefer Bayer Complete Insecticide at 10ml per 4oz of water. While in the dip I would take a tooth brush to the underside of the montis and in any crevices.
Good luck with it.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I am setting up my new tank in few weeks and I want to avoid MEN, SPS Pest, and LR pest at all cost.. This is a side of the hobby I really don't want to become an expert on and I compare these pest to something like Bed bugs.. Very difficult to get rid of, multiple medication, eggs are hard to kill, and you better off throwing everything away..

My method of hopefully living a pest free life:

1. I plan on keeping everything on pegs so if I have to remove I don't have to break the coral at the base and re-glue. This would make dipping easy and if I ever have to move corals when they grow into each other I can do so easily.

2. Less is more approach. More LR = More room for pest to roam. Same holds true for corals. I dont need more than 15 corals in my 115G Thats plenty once they grow in.

3. Add known fish that can control bugs such as wrasses. If anyone can recommend anything other than a six line wrasse that would be great

4. buy corals and fish from reputable dealers only. search for eggs, dipp, brush, and inspect constantly. If there is a sign of a pest I will dip again without having to break the base off.

 

[JaimeAdams]

3. Add known fish that can control bugs such as wrasses. If anyone can recommend anything other than a six line wrasse that would be great

Halichoeres melanurus and/or yellow wrasse Halichoeres chrysus

 

[2Wheelsonly]

I got rid of mine by a miracle...I took out all pieces and dipped them. I then placed a sacrificial piece in the middle of the tank to attract them; i'd pull it out and kill them off and place it back in to hopefully attract more stragglers. I then used Dr G coral dip for my red bug problem because my local vet was a prick and wouldn't write a prescription for interceptor... after that in tank treatment I have not seen a nudi for over 5 weeks. I have been placing monti's in the tank and checking them every night with a light and not a single sign of a nudi.

 

[Peanut]

I am setting up my new tank in few weeks and I want to avoid MEN, SPS Pest, and LR pest at all cost.. This is a side of the hobby I really don't want to become an expert on and I compare these pest to something like Bed bugs.. Very difficult to get rid of, multiple medication, eggs are hard to kill, and you better off throwing everything away..

My method of hopefully living a pest free life:

1. I plan on keeping everything on pegs so if I have to remove I don't have to break the coral at the base and re-glue. This would make dipping easy and if I ever have to move corals when they grow into each other I can do so easily.

2. Less is more approach. More LR = More room for pest to roam. Same holds true for corals. I dont need more than 15 corals in my 115G Thats plenty once they grow in.

3. Add known fish that can control bugs such as wrasses. If anyone can recommend anything other than a six line wrasse that would be great

4. buy corals and fish from reputable dealers only. search for eggs, dipp, brush, and inspect constantly. If there is a sign of a pest I will dip again without having to break the base off.

when you say "anything other than a six line wrasse" is that because you already have one and think its amazing, or have you had a bad experience with them?

 

[2Wheelsonly]

when you say "anything other than a six line wrasse" is that because you already have one and think its amazing, or have you had a bad experience with them?

They are known to be bullies, mine would beat up my other wrasse for a while before it got tired but they definitely are known for being jerks. Mine was great at pest killing though...

 

[kireek]

I just checked my tank after lights out and found Montipora eating nudibranchs all over a 4" monti cap in my tank. I also saw one on the glass (tiny White Sea slug, maybe 2.5mm long). I'm confident in this identification.

My favorite SPS was a neon green Montipora Confusa and it began bleaching and died over the last week. I believe they ate all the tissue and moved on to the monti cap.

Clearly this is a failure in my dipping/QTing but that cat is out of the bag.

Is there anything I can do to get rid of them? Wrasses are probably out since we have two small anemone shrimp and a Mandarin.

Should I dip/isolate my remaining Montipora and try to starve them out? How long would I need to go fallow. This really sucks - I do not have time for a big intervention these days :-(

I have Flatworm Exit and may try dosing this soon. Has anyone had luck dosing in tank to kill these with Flatworm exit? I've had luck using this product safely to kill off flatworms.

I would dip and isolate your remaining Montipora right away.Be certain to blast any crevices with a turkey baster during the dipping process.I would isolate the corals for 6 months or longer as @JaimeAdams mentioned.Do not underestimate their evilness.

I am really not sure about using the Flat worm exit for the removal of nudibranchs.I definitely would not count on it because in my experience these buggers are difficult to dislodge.I just don't think that they can be that easy to get rid off.It would be nice though.

Took me over 6 months to get rid of mine. They're like the cockroaches of the ocean. Nothing seems to kill them but persistence. I had to QT all monti's and dip/scrub every 3 days. I dosed KZ flatworm stop in the QT and display tank for the 6+ months and continue to dose the display tank with the KZ flatworm stop in case there are any lingering. I check nightly for them. Since they seem to come out more when their predators (wrasses) are sleeping. There have been reports of MENs living in rock/substrate for a very long time even with no monti's present. It's a constant battle to attempt to exterminate every single MEN and their eggs. Some reefers have given up monti's for over a year or more because it is such a pain. Best of luck.

Persistence will be necessary.I agree with dipping every 3 days and manual removal.I prefer to use a razor or other sharp implement to remove the eggs.Keep in mind that the Montipora will slime a lot.I would try to keep handling and scrubbing to a minimum.
I have long suspected that MENs can live without a host and deposit eggs on other surfaces.I would not be surprised if they had a way of going dormant too.

Personally I think nudibranchs are the worst. I think it was Melev who basically said that if you don't do anything your coral are already dead.
Getting Montipora Eating Nudibranchs is not a failure of coral dipping. It is a failure to properly Quarantine. Dips(some) will kill the adults but none will get the eggs. You need to scrape or brush away the eggs. They usually lay the eggs on the underside of the monti or just below the live tissue. They are very difficult to get rid of. I highly suggest wrasses as a biological control, but your shrimp will more than likely be lunch.
I have heard about people dosing flat worm exit, but I have not done that myself. You will also read about people dipping in potassium permanganate which supposedly dissolves the eggs as well, but can be very hard on the coral. the eggs take around a week to hatch, but if you are seeing the nudis then you surely have more than one or two so the eggs are being laid daily which means you have new ones hatching every day. I would remove all montis and anacroporas (in applicable) from my system and put them in a QT tank for 4-6 months, the longer the better. I would them dip every couple of days. I prefer Bayer Complete Insecticide at 10ml per 4oz of water. While in the dip I would take a tooth brush to the underside of the montis and in any crevices.
Good luck with it.

I agree that it is not a failure of dipping procedure.All corals should be quarantined.Period.A wrasse may not be able to find the elusive parasites.So I personally would not recommend one for MENs control.Especially in a established tank where there will be many other things to eat.

I have used the chemical Potassium Permanganate and will confirm that is is very hard on corals.However Montiporas CAN live through it.Months later the Montipora eating nudibranchs came back.This is what leads me to believe that MENs can live on other surfaces.To be fair,I completed the treatment in tank.Which is why I agree full heartedly agree with your quarantine recommendations.

Hopefully, I have not come off as harsh.These are some of the worst critters you will come across.Best of luck @wpeterson !

 

[Graffiti Spot]

I am setting up my new tank in few weeks and I want to avoid MEN, SPS Pest, and LR pest at all cost.. This is a side of the hobby I really don't want to become an expert on and I compare these pest to something like Bed bugs.. Very difficult to get rid of, multiple medication, eggs are hard to kill, and you better off throwing everything away..

You compare monti nudis to red bugs? Red bugs are so easy to get rid of. One pill and one treatment will do it. Only reason two could be needed is just incase one somehow got through alive. One did it for me both times I used it. They give birth to live bugs and don't lay eggs.

On another note I found Bayer to be very weak for treating monti nudis. I got some from a friend to experiment on and the dip even at high strengths didn't kill them even after 20 min dips, they were still moving. No one else has noticed this? I always heard coral Rx was a good dip for nudis. I haven't experimented with anything other than Bayer on these pests.

For the people that have seen them come back after months or years as the one poster said, do you think that they were just not killed off completley and something else kept the small numbers in check until enough hatched at once to become noticable again? Have you seen them definatly eating other corals that are not montipora? From what I know they only eat montipora.

Jamie Adams, you have seen monti nudis eat anacropora?

These things are extremely hard to get rid of because they travel so far from the coral colonies. Dipping weekly doesn't work as well as with aefw, but can work if done for a long period along with manual removal of any you see in-between dips.

 

[taintstick]

Just to chime in, again lol, my montis, cap/pokerstar/rainbow/sunset/fire digi/peach digi, were all taking a turn for the worst. No idea what was going on, params perfect, no human error except for one thing. Was excited over a new piece and did not dip as long as I normally did, using Coral RX. I removed all of them, dipped them all together and used a pipette to target blast even finer areas. Used recommended amount Rx/tank water and just about killed them all. Only reason I had faith was because they did not turn white. They appeared to be just a flat pale color skeleton with holes where the polyps were. 3 weeks later, saw polyp activity. 2 months later, polyps have all come back with even better color then ever!! Thinkin about callin them the Taint Collection!! Lol [emoji23]After the experience of almost killing them, I have adjusted to lowered the suggested amount of Coral Rx/tank water. No issues at all with my system/coral since then. Coral Rx works and I'll stick with it. My suggestion is harsh but would be, let the montis get all the nudis on them then remove and dip with Rx. The pipette in my opinion also played a role in blasted them "roaches of the sea" out.

 

[Frop]

Took me over 6 months to get rid of mine. They're like the cockroaches of the ocean. Nothing seems to kill them but persistence. I had to QT all monti's and dip/scrub every 3 days. I dosed KZ flatworm stop in the QT and display tank for the 6+ months and continue to dose the display tank with the KZ flatworm stop in case there are any lingering. I check nightly for them. Since they seem to come out more when their predators (wrasses) are sleeping. There have been reports of MENs living in rock/substrate for a very long time even with no monti's present. It's a constant battle to attempt to exterminate every single MEN and their eggs. Some reefers have given up monti's for over a year or more because it is such a pain. Best of luck.

Wow. I only have 1 SPS so I didn't realize how hard their predators could be to remove.

 

[scardall]

dip the monti's (noting nudi's life cycle) and add 6 line wrasse

 

[Highgrade]

Wrasses can help to a minimum. MENs will come out more at night.

 

[Ashish Patel]

You compare monti nudis to red bugs? Red bugs are so easy to get rid of. One pill and one treatment will do it. Only reason two could be needed is just incase one somehow got through alive. One did it for me both times I used it. They give birth to live bugs and don't lay eggs.

On another note I found Bayer to be very weak for treating monti nudis. I got some from a friend to experiment on and the dip even at high strengths didn't kill them even after 20 min dips, they were still moving. No one else has noticed this? I always heard coral Rx was a good dip for nudis. I haven't experimented with anything other than Bayer on these pests.

For the people that have seen them come back after months or years as the one poster said, do you think that they were just not killed off completley and something else kept the small numbers in check until enough hatched at once to become noticable again? Have you seen them definatly eating other corals that are not montipora? From what I know they only eat montipora.

Jamie Adams, you have seen monti nudis eat anacropora?

These things are extremely hard to get rid of because they travel so far from the coral colonies. Dipping weekly doesn't work as well as with aefw, but can work if done for a long period along with manual removal of any you see in-between dips.

Bed Bugs not Red bugs I've never had Red bugs so good to know... Thanks for your input

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Bed Bugs not Red bugs I've never had Red bugs so good to know... Thanks for your input

Haha missed that one. Gotta say it was easy to do in this situation

 

[wpeterson]

This tank is young, a 40 breeder we recently rebooted in november following moving house. Only once nice, medium sized montipora confusa was the first victim to be totally dead. Small monti cap frag was visibly covered in them.

I waited until a few hours after lights out and pulled all the other montipora frags and tossed them. Visibly infected with The nudibranchs. One small super man encrusting monti left and two small aceopora colonies left none of which I can remove easily.

I dosed Flatworm Exit on Weds night and re-dosed 50% Thursday. Did a big water change today.

Haven't seen any adults since then, but I'm sure they're still in there. Sadly afraid I may need to go SPS fallow for 4-6 months :-/

 

[wpeterson]

Big thanks to @JaimeAdams, @kireek, and @Highgrade for some good advice. I'm taking this as serious as cancer, but given it's already in my display my options are relatively limited.

I've done my best on the initial mitigation. Have to play it out and see how it goes, then probably go fallow for a long time