MnFish1
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Yes - sorry we were typing at the same time. I'm assuming the parameters in the tank are good (ammonia, all, pH, temp, salinity, etc etc)
Majority of Fish Died Overnight
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EliMelly
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Here’s the thing all the fish had breathing issues before the Achilles died so it can’t be the ammonia plus I tested it.
I waited I think 4 days in between with prazi.
Jay Hemdal
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I don't think it is velvet, most likely "late stage ich". The acute overnight deaths including two shrimp, are likely due to that in addition to some oxygen depravation issue - can't tell you what that might be though.
The discoloration of the achilles that you described, along with it still trying to eat, sounds more like late stage it to me.
Regarding oxygenation, I've seen some crazy things - one person accidentally plugged their air pump into a timed circuit and the darn thing turned off every night. More commonly, in smaller tanks, people rely on the minimal oxygenation coming from a HOB filter. then, one day, they overfill the tank by just a bit and the aeration stops and the fish dies. I've even seen cases in tanks with poor aeration, where too much oily residue got into the tank due to feeding fatty foods, and those oils cut off oxygen transfer with the room air. We never had these issues years ago, when literally every aquarium had air stones in it.
Jay
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EliMelly
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Which copper should I use? Copper safe by Fritz? Or is cupramine by seachem ok?
Sharkbait19
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Coppersafe or copper power are the best to use.
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EliMelly
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Thanks!
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EliMelly
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Update:
I went to LFS and got some things I need and got the following test results:
Ammonia 0
PH 7.5 - Low (Possibly bc of prazi pro)
Nitrite .2
Nitrate 5
Everything else is fine.
LFS owner was of the opinion that prazi pro lowered the ph and most importantly the oxygen which caused the deaths plus the original disease of ich.
He also suggested adding a skimmer to clean up the rest of the medication and holding on moving the fish over instantly to a tank that hasn’t been fully cycled.
Any thoughts?
Yellow tang passed as well unfortunately.
Thanks!
I went to LFS and got some things I need and got the following test results:
Ammonia 0
PH 7.5 - Low (Possibly bc of prazi pro)
Nitrite .2
Nitrate 5
Everything else is fine.
LFS owner was of the opinion that prazi pro lowered the ph and most importantly the oxygen which caused the deaths plus the original disease of ich.
He also suggested adding a skimmer to clean up the rest of the medication and holding on moving the fish over instantly to a tank that hasn’t been fully cycled.
Any thoughts?
Yellow tang passed as well unfortunately.
Thanks!
MnFish1
10K Club member
I think low O2 due to prazipro is possible. Did they check an ammonia? (Though with your low pH ammonia is not a likely issue) You shouldn't need a skimmer - just use activated carbon. Sorry about the tang - it looked like it would not make it earlier.
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EliMelly
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Thanks for your help. Ammonia is 0 on both tests. I got some carbon and ph buffer will add both in. Why isn’t the skimmer needed?
MnFish1
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I didn't say not to get a skimmer. However, I don't think thats the problem. Remember also - when you put a skimmer in a tank with medication - it's best to not collect the 'skim mate'. instead - let it flow back into the tank. Otherwise you will remover medication. So - in this case a skimmer is basically acting like an 'airstone'
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EliMelly
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Got it. All the surviving fish seem fine now so I’m going to set up my 90 gal and 15 gal tomorrow and start the cycle for hospital tank.
Jay Hemdal
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Prazipro doesn’t lower the pH directly. What happens is that the glycol in it is decomposed by bacteria as food. This process takes up oxygen and gives off carbon dioxide. The CO2 then lowers the pH. Prazipro treatments must be offset by increasing the aeration in the tank.
The Prazipro is completely decomposed in a week or so. You can turn the skimmer back on, but water changes are a better way to remove the waste products from the bacterial action.
A skimmer will help to a degree, but I use a wave maker and power heads for surface agitation.
benbalter
Community Member
I had the same thing happen to me! Never found the problem. Drained the tanks (3 of them 2 salt 1 fresh) and boiled the rock. My fresh is back up and running no problem. My wife's 75 is up but still having some problems. I am putting my 240 back on line today. I hope some on can clue both of us in on what's happening
MN
what mechanisms could allow for ammonia noncontrol in a reef display to harm fish first. Im amazed you inquired about ammonia that much given the settings. if it was during QT that would make sense, but a stocked and running reef tank?
why this matters:
knowing what to eliminate from fish loss work threads helps prevent chasing red herrings. Eliminating ammonia early on was where I started, reading the biosecurity article and tying that back to the stocking order here was where I started so was curious where you'd seen ammonia noncontrol in a reef tank before. agreed dead fish left to degrade will spike, I thought he'd been removing each fish vs letting them rot?
what mechanisms could allow for ammonia noncontrol in a reef display to harm fish first. Im amazed you inquired about ammonia that much given the settings. if it was during QT that would make sense, but a stocked and running reef tank?
why this matters:
knowing what to eliminate from fish loss work threads helps prevent chasing red herrings. Eliminating ammonia early on was where I started, reading the biosecurity article and tying that back to the stocking order here was where I started so was curious where you'd seen ammonia noncontrol in a reef tank before. agreed dead fish left to degrade will spike, I thought he'd been removing each fish vs letting them rot?
Troylee
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From everything I’ve read I still believe you had low 02 levels and that’s what did the damage… you said the flow seemed off and mentioned vortecs and if they’re ran on mobius it’s known to cause problems and they need resetting after awhile.. that on top of Prazipro would be my best guess of what happened! You even mention an airstone brought some fish back so it’s gotta be that! I think the achillies was a seperate problem and ich got the best of him after the 02 levels dropped and it started a chain reaction.. your lfs hit the nail on the head!
how did you fully rule out biosecurity breaks, given that article
and, if there was a time in the past you assessed a partial fish kill as disease, how did you arrive at it there?
In directly running about five thousand reef tank work threads to full completion, troubleshoots, not once was o2 ever a factor / links are available to see outcomes.
in all future jobs I'll ever work in other people's tanks, o2 will never be inquired about in any setting. the reason why: reef tanks don't run low on 02 given normal running. *systems other than reef tank displays sure might.
and, who here on the site has an o2 meter able to link anything to oxygen?
nobody tests for it.
now if pumps shut off agreed that's possible, was that confirmed> he woke up in the night before, and all the circulation was off? I thought he just had some fish die and some cleaner shrimps. cleaner shrimps are the weakest organism we keep just shy of basket stars: when they die it means nothing, a tiny insult can kill lysmata
given the tougher inverts lived, making this a fish-focused loss, being able to rule out disease immediately seems premature. if the pumps were never seen as off, meaning the normal reef flow continued, then that should be ruled out.
the fish has disease symptoms seen in post mortem
and, if there was a time in the past you assessed a partial fish kill as disease, how did you arrive at it there?
In directly running about five thousand reef tank work threads to full completion, troubleshoots, not once was o2 ever a factor / links are available to see outcomes.
in all future jobs I'll ever work in other people's tanks, o2 will never be inquired about in any setting. the reason why: reef tanks don't run low on 02 given normal running. *systems other than reef tank displays sure might.
and, who here on the site has an o2 meter able to link anything to oxygen?
nobody tests for it.
now if pumps shut off agreed that's possible, was that confirmed> he woke up in the night before, and all the circulation was off? I thought he just had some fish die and some cleaner shrimps. cleaner shrimps are the weakest organism we keep just shy of basket stars: when they die it means nothing, a tiny insult can kill lysmata
given the tougher inverts lived, making this a fish-focused loss, being able to rule out disease immediately seems premature. if the pumps were never seen as off, meaning the normal reef flow continued, then that should be ruled out.
the fish has disease symptoms seen in post mortem
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Sump Crab
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It's probably becuase in 2006 people were still practicing the Berlin system with 100% real ocean liverock. No one will ever convince me that a 1lb/gallon ocean liverock tank with big refugium and good skimmer will ever be beat by an aquarium dependent on artificial man made concoctions and dry rock. Purely anecdotal but it's how I feel lol.that is a good first go attempt on qt efforts. there's so many different entry points for disease it's truly I think the top challenge in reefing, keeping disease at bay or maintained/not killing fish. bringing in wet items repeatedly as we stock up the tank with corals, CUC makes keeping biosecurity a challenge, I read that here
something's really changed lately in reefing. in 2006 disease issues were not like this, permeating every trophic level of the hobby
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Easy…. Prazipro.. need I say more?
oh I see. yes agreed meds can do it under the listed mechanisms.
what brings in the need for the meds that in return dropped the o2 levels, where was the starting loss mechanism here? o2 was not the original loss initiator for sure.
if we can locate the original cause, readers will have a true chance at prevention and Eli's round 2 setup coming will have a much better chance.
if we could reverse engineer this challenge thread, what is the critical step(s) to take oppositely? that's the winning analysis imo.
my vote:
stocking fish first is the key. look how many advocate for the method, it's about 98% of the site:
www.reef2reef.com
ideally we'd build up this tank with corals, cuc and inverts and run it a while.
then fallow the whole system
then add those costly pre-quarantined fish. that upholds the biosecurity article.
any small bits added over the coming years are fallowed first in a separate smaller prep reef tank in the home then added to the display.
if we stock fish first, every repeat new addition to the reef tank over the coming months (hundreds cumulatively) becomes a new disease vector, and I'm seeing about 8 mos on average in the work threads until disease expression that favors highly only fish.
what brings in the need for the meds that in return dropped the o2 levels, where was the starting loss mechanism here? o2 was not the original loss initiator for sure.
if we can locate the original cause, readers will have a true chance at prevention and Eli's round 2 setup coming will have a much better chance.
if we could reverse engineer this challenge thread, what is the critical step(s) to take oppositely? that's the winning analysis imo.
my vote:
stocking fish first is the key. look how many advocate for the method, it's about 98% of the site:
What goes into the new tank first? Corals or Fish?
I know there are several different theories on this, so I thought this might be an interesting discussion. What do you think should go into the new tank first? Corals or Fish? What's your reasoning for your position?
www.reef2reef.com
ideally we'd build up this tank with corals, cuc and inverts and run it a while.
then fallow the whole system
then add those costly pre-quarantined fish. that upholds the biosecurity article.
any small bits added over the coming years are fallowed first in a separate smaller prep reef tank in the home then added to the display.
if we stock fish first, every repeat new addition to the reef tank over the coming months (hundreds cumulatively) becomes a new disease vector, and I'm seeing about 8 mos on average in the work threads until disease expression that favors highly only fish.
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