Lost half of SPS. Lesson learned after 10 years in reefing...cause and effect. Guess what caused it
- Thread starter Kato
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djf91
Valuable Member
In my own experience, I have noticed that it is not necessarily low PO4 that is the issue but rapid reductions in PO4 that cause these RTN events from the base up on colonies. I have experienced it with GFO which caused me to lose multiple frags and colonies. I also recently vacuumed the sand/detritus layer out of my refugium which caused some corals to pale and one Acropora to have a very small amount of rtn within 24 hours. I correlated this to my phosphates dropping from 0.18 before the vacuum to 0.11 measured the day after.
This also might not be from lowering po4 too fast. There are very few issues when people have lowered po4 too fast with LC, but there has been with GFO. It is likely that the GFO stripped something else too fast that caused the problem, but po4 dropping was assumed the culprit since it can be tested for.
djf91
Valuable Member
Let me correct myself, I mean all forms of phosphorous not just PO4. I think this happened when I removed the sand, mud, detritus from my refugium: all forms of phosphorous. I’ll note this also resolved my cyano issues in my refugium, sump and display.
I have used Lanthunum Chloride many times in the past and never had an issue.
GFO can remove more than phosphates. It can remove an unknown amount of other traces that might be more important at lower levels than ortho, poly/meta or organic phosphorous sources are. It very well could be that these other things cause coral issues when too much GFO is used. GFO also can lower alk which can lower pH. This could all be a cocktail where one thing is not so bad, but all together can cause some damage.
Edit - it just seems that if lowering po4 too quickly was an issue there would be more reported cases from folks who use LC and especially since it can lower MUCH more quickly than GFO can. There are reports of the up/down roller coaster of dosing over time can be an issue with any method used.
Edit - it just seems that if lowering po4 too quickly was an issue there would be more reported cases from folks who use LC and especially since it can lower MUCH more quickly than GFO can. There are reports of the up/down roller coaster of dosing over time can be an issue with any method used.
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Kato
Active Member
Yeah the po4 dropping too fast seems like a red herring. While my chaeto grew incredibly fast after I added ZeoFood, it wouldn't half it in 24h. But after a few weeks it got to 0.02 or so. ICP can also be inaccurate so it could have been lower.
I have also cleaned my sump...but forgot exactly when and how it fits in with the SPS starting to STN bottom up.
I have also cleaned my sump...but forgot exactly when and how it fits in with the SPS starting to STN bottom up.
ICP likely does the same po4 test that you do. ICP only detects atoms and not compounds, so it cannot figure out ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, etc. This is usually why the multiple vials. They likely use some sort of ascorbic acid test kit like you are using, so trust yourself.
thatmanMIKEson
Reefing ain't easy$
is that MUTHA HUFA?Zeovite, increasing algae light, and increase of lighting in the tank drove your nutrients to zero.
OR
You didn't calibrate your refractometer and the sg went higher than you thought.
What do I win?
Ah, I guess this has already been uncovered. LOL
OP, seems like our systems are pretty alike. Constantly getting 0 on my hanna NO3 test and 0.1 on the PO4.
Auto feed 4x a day and a homemade frozen cube at night with some added HUFA. When the Cheato slows, I up my feeding and dump some cheato.
gbru316
Well-Known Member
1. Lighting doesn’t cause STN. You’d either see bleaching or browning.
2. zeo/filtration changes would first result in coral turning pale, as observed by the ULNS trend years ago.
3. Live rock is an unknown, but doubtful.
4. Alk swings are known to trigger STN, that’s my bet.
2. zeo/filtration changes would first result in coral turning pale, as observed by the ULNS trend years ago.
3. Live rock is an unknown, but doubtful.
4. Alk swings are known to trigger STN, that’s my bet.
Kato
Active Member
Corals did turn pale before STN. Much more obvious now as I raised PO4 and see deep contrast.
Anyway I will continue with the current plan and see how it goes over the next few months:
No additives (except the stuff I've used for years)
Heavy feeding
Double check things are NO3 limited. Add PO4 if not
And yes I could be all wrong as others have pointed out. But will start here.
Anyway I will continue with the current plan and see how it goes over the next few months:
No additives (except the stuff I've used for years)
Heavy feeding
Double check things are NO3 limited. Add PO4 if not
And yes I could be all wrong as others have pointed out. But will start here.
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Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
I feel you got something else going on besides the zeo… it could be a number of things like everyone mentioned but I will say this! My chateo never grew till I started up zeo.. I use the stones, bac, zeo food7, zeo start and bacto balance… my chaeto exploded with growth and became so annoying I threw it all away lol.. I haven’t seen or experienced any I’ll effects on acros in fact I haven’t really noticed a difference at all to be honest.. right now I’m going on week 7 and I’m at full strength according to the bottles and I use mb7 with coral snow like twice a week.. I have a decent bio load and feed heavily as I have 8 tangs that get fiesty if they don’t have a full belly lol.. time will tell I guess.. I personally felt the chateo was sucking up all the goods from zeo so I tossed it after having to trim it every 3-4 days a baseball would turn into a foot ball lol..
Kato
Active Member
Did you check if you were NO3 limited before Zeo? If you were, then it's likely exactly what I experience and why the Chaeto took off (depleting PO4 in the process). The ZeoFood raised your NO3 significantly
If you tossed Chaeto you'll just end up with raised NO3 _and_ PO4. Not being limited there, some other algae will likely consume it eventually.
It's a big debate whether there's 'anything good in NO3' vs just some nitrogen. Lots of threads on that subject. I'm not a fan of NO3 and something has to limit growth of something.
thatmanMIKEson
Reefing ain't easy$
not testing N03/p04 regularly is freedom, only really needed when a tank is new with new rock and substrate or a problem comes up you wanna point a finger at, but remember you point one finger you got 4 pointing back at you 
lol
glad you got it figured out, sounds like the tank is on track now!!
lolglad you got it figured out, sounds like the tank is on track now!!
Kato
Active Member
It's actually pretty cool way to adjust. My PO4 actually got a bit too high to my liking yesterday. 10 drops of ZeoFood, and today po4 is less and in range (0.1). Chaeto gained a bit more weight overnight....
As you can tell, I can't stop experimenting. My fault, I know...
As you can tell, I can't stop experimenting. My fault, I know...
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
My nitrates run 25 and po4 at .04 never been low as I feed 4-5 times daily.. a ton of pellets, flakes, 2 sheets of nori and 5 frozen cubes.. my tank is sparkly clean as I have a ocd about it haha! No algae besides corraline and i wipe the glass about every 3 days.
Kato
Active Member
Just don't raise po4 to 0.1. I bet you will see algae. You area also po4 limited IMO, though your test may be more accurate than mine (which was 0.02 in the end at least according to ICP)
formallydehyde
Active Member
I stumbled on a reefbuilders article from like a decade ago that I think mentions amino acid/vitamin dosing being associated with STN for a lot of people (anecdotally), so I guess that's been an association for a while.
I believe the general thought is:
some microbes either can't synthesize, or take a long time to synthesize certain vitamins/amino acids > prevalence of those microbes is inherently limited by having to wait for other organisms to slowly break down complex nutrients into low concentrations of simple compounds they can use > dosing relatively high concentrations of these limiting nutrients causes these guys to basically skip the line and replicate much more than normal > sometimes the species that are growing a lot happen to be opportunistic pathogens or otherwise bad for tank health in some way.
I believe the general thought is:
some microbes either can't synthesize, or take a long time to synthesize certain vitamins/amino acids > prevalence of those microbes is inherently limited by having to wait for other organisms to slowly break down complex nutrients into low concentrations of simple compounds they can use > dosing relatively high concentrations of these limiting nutrients causes these guys to basically skip the line and replicate much more than normal > sometimes the species that are growing a lot happen to be opportunistic pathogens or otherwise bad for tank health in some way.
Scubadoo4u
Well-Known Member
Either the Alk swing or the imported Live rock..
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