Looking for thoughts on organic carbon dosing and nitrate

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Second, what is the starting microbiome? Frankly I remain unconvinced that we are even certain which bacteria are using the carbon sources we specifically add to carbon dose. Does carbon dosing change the microbiome? (Almost certainly) If it does change it, how and in what ways?

I think we are reasonably far from having answers, but rather at the black box stage of the diagram. But good topic for discussion

I dont disagree. I have no idea which species consumed the acetate I added, or if it was even primarily by bacteria at all, since corals, sponges and other organisms can also take up acetate.

That said, I’m also not sure knowing the species matters.

 

[biom]

Starting too low, taking too long to ramp up the dose, and never reaching a high enough dose to support strong bacteria growth. Also, I think many aquarist quit before the dose is high enough.

We should consider every tank is different and there are so many people who don't want to go deep in reef chemistry they need simple and most important - safe "how to dose" instructions. Having in mind carbon overdosing could kill your tank because of oxygen depletion I think starting with low doses and slowly increasing is the safest way for most aquarists.

Of course if it is you and me and we know what we are doing it is completely other story.

 

[Dan_P]

We should consider every tank is different and there are so many people who don't want to go deep in reef chemistry they need simple and most important - safe "how to dose" instructions. Having in mind carbon overdosing could kill your tank because of oxygen depletion I think starting with low doses and slowly increasing is the safest way for most aquarists.

Of course if it is you and me and we know what we are doing it is completely other story.

Agree, though my perspective is that every aquarium is basically the same. A possibly more important concept to keep in mind when giving advice is that every aquarist is different

I was pointing out that the early scale-up table for dosing was incorrectly calculated for systems over 10 gallons and it was this math error that has most likely distorted the hobby‘s collective thinking about the safe rate of dose increase. Also, when that table was created, there seemed to be a much higher level of fear about carbon dosing, nothing like today’s trend or craze to add things to aquarium.

 

[UtahReefer]

About 10 years ago I had a 150 gallon SPS tank and used the Zeovit system. It works, period. Got back into the hobby last November with a 45 gallon cube plus a sump. This time I have tried the Aquaforest system (bac and carbon dosing). Like Zeovit, it works. I dose bac and carbon every day and the tank remains pristine. I get a light film on the glass that I clean off about every 5 to 6 days. There never was an "ugly phase" with the start of this system. Nitrates and Phosphates remain incredibly low (No3 around 1 to 2ppm, Po4 .01 to .02). With these systems it's important that you understand what "heavy in, heavy out" means. I feed heavily, if I didn't corals would starve. It's essential that you have a good skimmer with these types of systems or you won't remove the bacteria that become laden with the excess nutrients. In this method there is alway plenty of nutrients in the water, they are just not allowed to build up and create a problem. I know it's a touchy subject in the hobby because many of us have our own "tried and true" methods for success and resist change. However, bacteria IS the future of this hobby.

 

[chipchipbro]

About 10 years ago I had a 150 gallon SPS tank and used the Zeovit system. It works, period. Got back into the hobby last November with a 45 gallon cube plus a sump. This time I have tried the Aquaforest system (bac and carbon dosing). Like Zeovit, it works. I dose bac and carbon every day and the tank remains pristine. I get a light film on the glass that I clean off about every 5 to 6 days. There never was an "ugly phase" with the start of this system. Nitrates and Phosphates remain incredibly low (No3 around 1 to 2ppm, Po4 .01 to .02). With these systems it's important that you understand what "heavy in, heavy out" means. I feed heavily, if I didn't corals would starve. It's essential that you have a good skimmer with these types of systems or you won't remove the bacteria that become laden with the excess nutrients. In this method there is alway plenty of nutrients in the water, they are just not allowed to build up and create a problem. I know it's a touchy subject in the hobby because many of us have our own "tried and true" methods for success and resist change. However, bacteria IS the future of this hobby.

Why do you always have to dose BAC? I understand that theres plenty of BACS when you dose carbon as you feed them and they do mulitply.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

I dont disagree. I have no idea which species consumed the acetate I added, or if it was even primarily by bacteria at all, since corals, sponges and other organisms can also take up acetate.

That said, I’m also not sure knowing the species matters.

When I had Dino’s I dosed mb7 a lot to out compete it. My nitrates dropped(basically from all the bacteria dosing) and I began a battle were even after I stopped using mb7 I couldn’t raise nutrients because algae’s just took over and consumed them.
moral of the store I believe the mb7 out competed not only the Dino’s but my whole micro biome. I believe it does matter what bacteria we are feeding.
to reestablish my bacteria biome I had to reseed it, keep introducing nutrients and remove algae’s with natural predators while my biome rebuilt itself to eventually out compete the algae’s.

 

[cvicente]

There are two (IMO) additional factors that I would consider… (and prob many more)

First, what is the source of organic carbon? Alcohol, acetic acid, citric acid?
Amino acids (are we sure we know what these are doing in our tanks?) Are those amino acids phosphorylated?
How about “marine snow” type products?

Second, what is the starting microbiome? Frankly I remain unconvinced that we are even certain which bacteria are using the carbon sources we specifically add to carbon dose. Does carbon dosing change the microbiome? (Almost certainly) If it does change it, how and in what ways?

I think we are reasonably far from having answers, but rather at the black box stage of the diagram. But good topic for discussion

I have mentioned this before in many carbon dosing posts, everyone should read the work of Dr. Forest Rowher on coral holobiont and how carbon sources alter coral microbiome. @Smarkow you will see you are right in what you are stating in your post. You can search his work at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/

 

[chipchipbro]

Theres a new product which claims to provide a richer, more diverse microbiome.
What you guys think?

Modern Reef’s Biodiversity is much more than bacteria in a bottle | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Euro Corals brand Modern Reef has introduced a new microorganism soup called Biodiversity. Separate from their Nitri-Bac beneficial nitrifying bacteria for new aquariums, Biodiversity has been created…

reefbuilders.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When I had Dino’s I dosed mb7 a lot to out compete it. My nitrates dropped(basically from all the bacteria dosing) and I began a battle were even after I stopped using mb7 I couldn’t raise nutrients because algae’s just took over and consumed them.
moral of the store I believe the mb7 out competed not only the Dino’s but my whole micro biome. I believe it does matter what bacteria we are feeding.
to reestablish my bacteria biome I had to reseed it, keep introducing nutrients and remove algae’s with natural predators while my biome rebuilt itself to eventually out compete the algae’s.

My comment was not intended to claim the microbiome doesn’t matter, but that an aquarist doesn’t need to know which species are using the dosed organic carbon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Theres a new product which claims to provide a richer, more diverse microbiome.
What you guys think?

Modern Reef’s Biodiversity is much more than bacteria in a bottle | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Euro Corals brand Modern Reef has introduced a new microorganism soup called Biodiversity. Separate from their Nitri-Bac beneficial nitrifying bacteria for new aquariums, Biodiversity has been created…

reefbuilders.com

I’ve been waiting for many years to hear a convincing reason of how or why a more diverse microbiome will help an ordinary reef tank.

Displacing dinos and cyano doesn’t necessarily require many species.

 

[MyFirstCar]

One question I've had on carbon dosing is that Lou from tropic Marin in his MACNA talk says that carbon dosing primarily effects phosphate. but everyone here seems to use carbon dosing for nitrate control, and say it has little to no effect on phosphate. Are there 2 versions that control different things?

 

[ScottB]

One question I've had on carbon dosing is that Lou from tropic Marin in his MACNA talk says that carbon dosing primarily effects phosphate. but everyone here seems to use carbon dosing for nitrate control, and say it has little to no effect on phosphate. Are there 2 versions that control different things?

I don't have data to support my opinion, but anecdotally that has always been my experience. Also, if I hammer away to hard and get nitrate limited, my PO4 will climb quickly.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

One question I've had on carbon dosing is that Lou from tropic Marin in his MACNA talk says that carbon dosing primarily effects phosphate. but everyone here seems to use carbon dosing for nitrate control, and say it has little to no effect on phosphate. Are there 2 versions that control different things?

This talk is why I switched to Plus NP

I had phosphates that condtantly bottomed out with multiple doses per day, and low nitrates that with dosing would stay up, did not require a high frequency to keep them to 5 or 10ppm.

However, now that I am using Plus NP, my phosphates stay up higher without any additional supliment, but my nitrate consumption is way high.

If I dose wayy I used to dose to reach 5ppm nitrates, and would take 5 or 7 days to hit near 0 (the way my tank was prior to dosing Plus NP) now... my tank consumes that same ammount in a day.

So while I appear to have much better phosphate consumption, its at least present now unlike prior when I was dosing 15ml of neophos daily in a 75 G. Where as my nitrate consumption is so high I can't detect it.

I recently took the leap of faith that the Plus NP recommends, and stopped checking nitrates and dosing them, relying on the fact that it is in fact adding the appropriate amount of nitrates to the ratio of carbon the product is also adding to keep nitrogen available.

2 weeks in everything seems to be going very well, time will tell.

 

[biom]

I’ve been waiting for many years to hear a convincing reason of how or why a more diverse microbiome will help an ordinary reef tank.

Displacing dinos and cyano doesn’t necessarily require many species.

Ensuring diversity is always the best solution for limiting hyperdominance not only in theory and not only in Nature but also in our reefs. Replacing one hyperdominant with another is never a good approach, there is no such a thing like a "good hyperdominant". For example you are battling hair algae and solving the problem with fluconasole, but then cyano appear spreading fast and taking over emptied ecological niche becoming hyperdominant. And you are starting dosing antibiotic to kill it completely leaving the ecological niche empty again... and then Dino arrives... But if the niche is never left empty and there are hundreds other types of bacteria and algae competing (including hair, cyano and dino) for the same resources then none of them will become hyperdominant. But to do this you should keep water parameters and nutrients at levels acceptable for wide varieties of organisms which is the trickiest point of this hobby but I think we are in good direction

 

[Dburr1014]

One question I've had on carbon dosing is that Lou from tropic Marin in his MACNA talk says that carbon dosing primarily effects phosphate. but everyone here seems to use carbon dosing for nitrate control, and say it has little to no effect on phosphate. Are there 2 versions that control different things?

I had the same question.
Pics didn't post in order.


This says according to Lou, polyps have a hard time to take up po4. Bacteria takes it up then the polyp eats it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ensuring diversity is always the best solution for limiting hyperdominance not only in theory and not only in Nature but also in our reefs. Replacing one hyperdominant with another is never a good approach, there is no such a thing like a "good hyperdominant". For example you are battling hair algae and solving the problem with fluconasole, but then cyano appear spreading fast and taking over emptied ecological niche becoming hyperdominant. And you are starting dosing antibiotic to kill it completely leaving the ecological niche empty again... and then Dino arrives... But if the niche is never left empty and there are hundreds other types of bacteria and algae competing (including hair, cyano and dino) for the same resources then none of them will become hyperdominant. But to do this you should keep water parameters and nutrients at levels acceptable for wide varieties of organisms which is the trickiest point of this hobby but I think we are in good direction

In a normal reef tank not suffering from a substantial pest problem, I do not see what “problem” is being solved by increasing diversity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are there 2 versions that control different things?

No, there is no evidence or, IMO, the likelihood of such a thing.

 

[biom]

In a normal reef tank not suffering from a substantial pest problem, I do not see what “problem” is being solved by increasing diversity.

Normal reef tank not suffering from a substantial pest problem means there already rich enough diversity established
Bu never mind I've responded manly to this claim:

Displacing dinos and cyano doesn’t necessarily require many species.

And my point in short was if you are displacing one superdominant with another you are not changing anything, you need to displace it with diversity of others not allowing only one to dominate.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I've wo

Normal reef tank not suffering from a substantial pest problem means there already rich enough diversity established
Bu never mind I've responded manly to this claim:

And my point in short was if you are displacing one superdominant with another you are not changing anything, you need to displace it with diversity of others not allowing only one to dominate.

I've been wondering, given the fact that apparently there is planktonic life from the oceans that have shown up on the outside of the international space station, is it even possible to be putting things like a new frag in the tank without introducing a ton of organisms?

I mean, if they are scraping the exterior of a thing in space, and finding growing cultures of ocean life on it, how the heck am I gonna keep it away if its just getting distributed through space?

Is low diversity of microbial life possible over time in our tanks?

 

[naterealbig]

I have mentioned this before in many carbon dosing posts, everyone should read the work of Dr. Forest Rowher on coral holobiont and how carbon sources alter coral microbiome. @Smarkow you will see you are right in what you are stating in your post. You can search his work at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/

Could you give us the Cliff's?